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timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 8:54 AM

> http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,3
> 98708,00.html
>
> thanks for the post doc. Mr.de Leon's statement of
> how the lack of education amongst the Islamic youth
> remains a dangerous element.

How does one solve this when most Islamic nations teach Islam as the core of the circulum? The real issue isn't just education, but secualr education emphasizing a well rounded education, not just from the Muslim point of view.

As I've said before, if
> these kids are taught both of religion and worldly
> matters we may be able to stem terrorism. They go
> into terrorism because they believe it's right,
> because as far as the Madrasahs/Wahabbis are
> concerned, it's the only way to combat the
> "Imperialistic American Machine".

Scary part is, a lot of "moderate" muslims support this agenda as well. Your hands are still bloody if you watch the murder in the car, if you sit on the side a watch a murder and do little about it, you are complicit. If you blame everyone else for the murderers actions, you are complicit, regardless of what the koran says. Essentially, Muslims have to tackle this problem and I've seen very little done by Islamic nations to stop the problem. The USA didn't sell out their interests, we just buy it (a probelm in itself, i agree) their leaders do it daily. Its not just Osama, but the leaders of Egypt, Iran, Syria, etc etc

Muslims today
> forget the first word that the Arkangel Gabriel or
> Jibril as he's called in Arabic said to Muhammad:
> Iq'ra. Read (or recite in some translations). They've
> forgotten it...an I'm sorry to see it in such a
> state...

Of course they forget it. State sponsored brainwashing (education system) doesn't mention it, it only cites parts of the quran that perpetuates their wordly agenda that have little concern for the majority of muslims.

There comes a time where its not all the Western Powers faults and someone has to look in the mirror and say "These guys really aren't looking out for us," because from what I've seen of the rhetoric of high clerics that get press and al-jazeera, that mentality is being perpetuated and frankly, its as scary as any imperialist plot of any industrialized nation.

Its called deflection and triagulation. Many leaders in the Middle East believe as long as they can keep the West their enemy, they won't seem so bad in comparison, when in fact, what is really holding the Muslim people down are their own leaders. (Qadafi, hussein, King Hussein, the Mullahs of Iran, House of Saud, Syria, Pakistan's regional warlords.) Say what you want about the US, but we can have a revolution and a change in ideology every 4 years (sometimes 2 if you can switch the house), how possible is that in most Islamic countries? Not very....

The status quo isn't working. Saudi Arabia should have a booming economy when in fact many still live in poverty with strict codes of education that employ brainwashing tactics and give a singualr view of education. This is common in Iran, Syria, Egypt, India, Indonesia, and Pakistan.

It won't change until it changes from within, or until China needs oil so bad that they join the USA and wipe out the entire region...noone wants to see that....but certainly don't be naieve to think they won't do it, you only have ot look back as far as Tibet and Iraq to know, they certanly will.

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 12:26 PM

Timmy---thank you for the extensive list of news sources!
I forgot about the Economist even though my father-in-law subscribes to it.
I wouldn't know about the others unless someone told me---so thanks for telling me.

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 12:54 PM

Hi again Timmy,

You wrote:
>>You claimed censorship on the part of American Newspapers, I'd like you to cite examples.>>

I think censorship is a slippery slope (One reason I oppose the V-chip). It is not an all or nothing thing. I'll agree with you that the word "censorship" may be a bit strong for what is happening in the USA, but there are allegations of coverups or delays in printing. So, I hope you will allow me to still assert there is "Some" censorship". Alas, I don't have [current] specifics in front of me.

Here are a couple of old "filtering" examples that come to mind.

Years ago the Boston Globe ran a story about some guy who had committed some crime, allegedly because he had been forced by circumstance into it. The story tried to make the perpetrator into a hero. Somewhere buried in the story there was mention of a negative entry wound or something obtuse like that. The Boston Herald reporting the same story simply told how the perpetrator shot his victim in the back of the head.

Also years ago, the Boston Globe reported how a Palestinian was shot in the back by Israeli Defence Forces. The Herald reported how the guy was a suicide bomber and how he was shot in the back because he had broken through a check point.

Filtering. Sometimes it's not what you write, but what you leave out.

It has been documented elsewhere how the USA goverment constantly tries to intercept and stop any pictures of caskets coming back from Iraq or of wounded/maimed/limbless veterans. The administration is allegedly trying to keep the wounded toll a secret and refuses to shed any light on Iraqi civilan casualties.

Oh, did you hear how that woman [forget the name---the one who picketed the Bush ranch] was handcuffed and dragged out of the Capitol building [the night of the State of Union speech] because she was wearing a shirt that displays the number of dead soldiers? She was charged with "protesting".

Again, please note how I said "there is "some" censorship. Obviously it is not total, but I still claim the attempts are there. And, some people claim SOME of the censorship/filtering is self-imposed or even in partnership with the Administration.

Finally, I do agree with your comments that the USA still has an open and free press. I just want it to stay that way and not be whittled down.

knightace

Posts: 43
Registered: 7/2/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 12:56 PM

Now just because you say your Christian, Muslim, or Jewish doesn't mean you are if you pervert the faiths. People tend to convievently forget that all three believe in the same God. There is certantly a difference in philosophy, but that one simalarity stays the same.

sandwraith

Posts: 815
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 8:25 PM

It's funny that you keep mentioning Pakistan timmy. After all, Musharaff sits comfortably on the Presidency because he's got plenty of American support. Ah well. In all the political Batchall we've been throwing at each other we've really forgotten what the topic was about. Muslim Characters in comics. This is quickly becoming like the Girls or Mature Women or whatever thread [frown]

and having been to that thread a number of times...it concerns me.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 11:26 PM

> Hi again Timmy,
>
> You wrote:
> >>You claimed censorship on the part of American
> Newspapers, I'd like you to cite examples.>>
>
> I think censorship is a slippery slope (One reason I
> oppose the V-chip). It is not an all or nothing
> thing. I'll agree with you that the word
> "censorship" may be a bit strong for what is
> happening in the USA, but there are allegations of
> coverups or delays in printing. So, I hope you will
> allow me to still assert there is "Some"
> censorship". Alas, I don't have [current] specifics
> in front of me.
>
> Here are a couple of old "filtering" examples that
> come to mind.
>
> Years ago the Boston Globe ran a story about some guy
> who had committed some crime, allegedly because he
> had been forced by circumstance into it. The story
> tried to make the perpetrator into a hero. Somewhere
> buried in the story there was mention of a negative
> entry wound or something obtuse like that. The
> Boston Herald reporting the same story simply told
> how the perpetrator shot his victim in the back of
> the head.

Censorship would assume that neither paper could print any of it. That isn't censorship, its a media agenda.

>
> Also years ago, the Boston Globe reported how a
> Palestinian was shot in the back by Israeli Defence
> e Forces. The Herald reported how the guy was a
> suicide bomber and how he was shot in the back
> because he had broken through a check point.

Again, it was still reported. The paper has the free will to report it as they saw fit. That to me is a lack of consorship to its highest form!! It basiclally said we believe in a freedon of expression so passionaltey we even let papers print near falsehoods!

>
> Filtering. Sometimes it's not what you write, but
> what you leave out.

That's not consoring the journalist, its actually allowing him more liberties than perhaps he should be allowed by journalistic standards...

>
> It has been documented elsewhere how the USA
> goverment constantly tries to intercept and stop any
> pictures of caskets coming back from Iraq or of
> wounded/maimed/limbless veterans. The administration
> is allegedly trying to keep the wounded toll a secret
> and refuses to shed any light on Iraqi civilan
> casualties.

Freedon of expression doesn't count in war? Is it wrong? Maybe. Is it legal? Absolutely.

>
> Oh, did you hear how that woman [forget the
> name---the one who picketed the Bush ranch] was
> handcuffed and dragged out of the Capitol building
> [the night of the State of Union speech] because she
> was wearing a shirt that displays the number of dead
> soldiers? She was charged with "protesting".

I am unaware of the law in Washington DC. It is my understanding you need a permt to portest in DC. I don't recall reading in the constitution the guidelines of one can express himself/herself freely? You can't say phuck on TV, so is that censorship as well?

Censorship, to me, implies a legal code. By censorship you mean they were violating constitutional rights and through precedent the Supreme Court has ruled time and again that certain forms of expression can be regualted, yet not stifled. Time and place kind of thing. Should you be able to go to a kindergarten class and start an orgy in front of the kids?

>
> Again, please note how I said "there is "some"
> censorship. Obviously it is not total, but I still
> claim the attempts are there. And, some people claim
> SOME of the censorship/filtering is self-imposed or
> even in partnership with the Administration.

you mean with EVERY Administration, its actually gotten a lot better, my friend. A lot better in the past 15 years or so.

>
> Finally, I do agree with your comments that the USA
> still has an open and free press. I just want it to
> stay that way and not be whittled down.

Its freer than its ever been. I think it will whittle depending on what the market bares. If you can profit from a freer press, they'll keep doing it. The government doesn't control that, a free market does. The internet has guarunteed us that.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 11:44 PM

> It's funny that you keep mentioning Pakistan timmy.
> After all, Musharaff sits comfortably on the
> Presidency because he's got plenty of American
> support. Ah well. In all the political Batchall we've
> been throwing at each other we've really forgotten
> what the topic was about. Muslim Characters in
> comics. This is quickly becoming like the Girls or
> Mature Women or whatever thread [frown]

and having been
> to that thread a number of times...it concerns me.

I'm unaware of what thread you are referring to--but what concerns you about it?

As for Pakistan, have I once supported American Foreign policy in anything I have said? Once? Simply because one side is whacked in the head doesn't excuse the whacked in the head behavior of another. I have a great disdain for US Foreign Policy. It isn't focused. It should be. Let's be clear, I agree american fire power sold cheaply to the Pakistani government help him stay in power (for now) yet the muslim justice system in firmly entrenched in Pakistan and it is a hotbed of wahhabism and insurgency. I am always confused as to why the world is concerned with Iran and Israel, when the immediate threat is a nuclear armed Pakistan on the brink of a wahhabist revolution in Asia. That is why I keep bringing up Pakistan, it is essential in the geopolitical structure of the world. Pakistan, India, USA, France, UK, China, Isreal hold the fate of the world in their hands. That's real. Right now a whole lot more real than a spoiled rotten little Billionaire tycoon's son running around in the hills playing prophet. What is encouraging is that even before the General President, or President-General or whatever you call someone who takes over in a coup is called, the religion that was infused in the language of engaging India was hidden rhetoric.

I don't consider Bin Laden a player. He really isn't, for any reason.

Pakistan and Iran and Isreal. Now they are players. Any kind of radical takeover could eliminate a huge portion of Islam very quickly. Isreal should be handled very softly. 200 nukes could phuck up anyone's Sabbath, Jewish or Muslim, if you know what I mean. The rhetoric should be softer on all sides or everyone loses. Noone wins. Not even Allah.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 2, 2006 11:49 PM

> Now just because you say your Christian, Muslim, or
> Jewish doesn't mean you are if you pervert the
> faiths. People tend to convievently forget that all
> three believe in the same God. There is certantly a
> difference in philosophy, but that one simalarity
> stays the same.

Yes all are children of Abraham. Or so the story goes....

Amazing how someone can take a simple lesson like "love your neighbor" and make amendments to that.

The scriptures and the good things religious organizations do should be applauded, but except for that, religion has become meaningless. not because I don't believe in God because I do--just in a different way. So many people should just live and let live, why does everyone want to impose their beliefs on everyone else?

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 3, 2006 3:11 AM

Good morning everyone,
BTW, more news on the cartoon fiasco in several places. The the managing editor of France Soir, Jacques Lefranc, was fired; the editor-in-chief of The Jordanian weekly newspaper Shihan was fired.

To timmy: You wrote <<Its freer than its ever been. I think it will whittle depending on what the market bares. If you can profit from a freer press, they'll keep doing it. The government doesn't control that, a free market does. The internet has guaranteed us that.>>

Until I can find specific examples of censorship, I'll understand that I can't persuade you to my view. I, for now, think we agree on "market agenda".

My gut reaction to your last thoughts, however, is to disagree strongly to the first sentence of your paragraph above. I have relatives in the media; one, in fact, is a [mid-level] director at a well-known American company that owns a lot of radio stations. He and I have discussed the "problem" of so few companies owning so many media outlets. As a journalist he has concerns about censorship and "market agenda" [choosing your terms there].

I have attended discussion group sessions and recall seeing something on CSPAN about the centralization of the media in the USA. When a few people own so much, then opposing views are discouraged. I call that censorship or at least intent to censor.

One visible example of all this is the huge drop in the number of two-paper towns in the USA since World War II.
With the advent of the Internet, it is not so much a problem. Please remember how for many of us the Internet is new. For some of you younger people, it has always been there.

Speaking of the Internet:
I have had discussions with my relatives [the professional journalists] about "the Internet". Is it a form of "the press"? It is definitely a new form of medium. Recall, that blogs are a new phenomenon---essentially widely dispersed, timely diaries, blogs allow many people to act as journalists. But are bloggers real journalists?
I have spoken to friends who took journalism classes in college; I write letters to the editor all the time; I had a guest column in a newspaper. Am I a journaist?

I have spoken to an editor about bloggers and technology. Generally, professionals like the intent, but look down on individuals who know nothing about the rules and traditions of professional journalism. Most journalists [in the US] don't consider bloggers to be journalists [yet].

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 3:50 AM

Read this:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/letters/articles/2006/02/04/hostage_taking/

I agree with the writer. The item referred to may be not clear government censorship, but is a mild example of the filtering (or "marketing agenda") that occurs in the USA.
While the overall problem pales in comparison to what happens in China and elsewhere, many in the USA (including me) believe the "beginnings" have already started.

sandwraith

Posts: 815
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 4:24 AM

Whoa, this is news to me. Maybe the media doesn't want to worsen the already tarnished image of the US Army since the whole Abu Ghairab Prison Affair. Let's not forget the source is American and though it may not be biased, it may lack the flare that most American journalists have when hammering Bush,Osama,Chirac,Micheal Jackson and who else. I believe its called...Transgressive journalism?Also there is the age old adage of: "What you don't know won't hurt you"

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 10:28 AM

> I have spoken to an editor about bloggers and
> technology. Generally, professionals like the intent,
> but look down on individuals who know nothing about
> the rules and traditions of professional journalism.
> Most journalists [in the US] don't consider bloggers
> s to be journalists [yet].

Of course an editor and people who make money at newspaper are looked down upon. Thats why its known as elitist media. The Brits looked down at the colonists, the Afrikaners looked down on the native Africans, Aussie looked down on Aborigenes...

doesn't make it real or right.

They are threatened that their jobs are being taken away by people writing truths rather than their specific agendas.

Docotrs don't like holistic healers either....doesn't mean their isn't some validity to it.

benchpress3

Posts: 544
Registered: 6/8/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 10:47 AM

I wouldn't mind if there was a muslim character. I don't care if there's a catholic, jew, or any other religious or race of a character. The only thing I don't want to see is a well established character coming out of the closet.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 10:58 AM

> Whoa, this is news to me. Maybe the media doesn't
> want to worsen the already tarnished image of the US
> Army since the whole Abu Ghairab Prison Affair. Let's
> not forget the source is American and though it may
> not be biased, it may lack the flare that most
> American journalists have when hammering
> Bush,Osama,Chirac,Micheal Jackson and who else. I
> believe its called...Transgressive journalism?Also
> there is the age old adage of: "What you don't know
> won't hurt you"

Yes. like the Western press barely touching on the fact that mental and physical torture in Thai prisons is unchecked and barely is noticed in the world's eyes. Let's talk about your prison system for a bit, shall we? Yes, no war is going on, yet, in your mind, the boys at Abu Gharaib should get more press than months worth of 24 hour coverage. Maybe we should cover the Thai prison and criminal justice system for that many days, the wonderful things we'd learn.

Her'es a great article

http://www.ahrchk.net/hrday2005/pdf/HRDay-Thailand.pdf

Let's get this out in the open shall we.

You know, what the rest of the world doesn't know won't hurt them? Like the rapes that happen hourly in Islamic homes worldwide. What the world doesn't know won't hurt them. Vaginal mutilation, instant divorce, all that fun stuff the moderate Mulsim turn their head to.

Shall we now talk about the media's lack of coverage for the disgusting human rights violations of many Islamic countries? You know the complete demoralization of women or the fact the marital rape is accepted pratice in many Islamic circles, that women are traded by fathers to husbands like cattle or murdered because they are raped. Maybe we should talk about the lack of media coverage on that. I didn't mention this before, but I find it almost funny how a male muslim goes to Maylasia and from his perspective every is ok, well of course it is, you are male and Muslim, try being a woman there and you'll see it quite differently. I'm sure a white man who visited S Africa 20 years ago was impressed too! What a joke. I tried to be as diplomatic as I could, but saindwriath, your indisuous prodding with small examples of abuse by Western counries, just your sligh mentions disregard the other horrid abuses that happen worldwide that get little media coverage. Like the sex trade in Thailand.

Please, don't throw sotnes when you live in a glass house.

Now lets talk about prisons in Islamic countries. Abu Ghairab is a virtual paradize compared to them. Lets talk about the prison in Thailand for that matter, why don't we? Lets' talk about prisons. C'mon. I don't recall the media bringing up the rampants humans rights violation happening in those prisons...let's be fair. Let's talk about the mass executions for blasphemy. Amazing, if someone does'nt believe as you, its ok to kill them. I don't recall that happening in Abu gharaib...

Abu Gharaib was a dark chapter in the US military, but one dark chapter doesn't make a book. I bet the media could write volumes about the mess that is the criminal justice system in Thailand right now.

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 4, 2006 2:18 PM

sandwraith---I haven't forgottenthe original topic.
This is clearly a case where one question touches upon so many related topics. You should feel proud to have started something that has become a cynosure for so many people around the world.

I am astounded the DC moderators have not shut down this thread. Maybe it is because we are being civil? (I have no idea) It is a tribute to the commentators/members here that the thread has remained civil. People are agreeing or disagreeing "politely".

timmy---You have shown me a lot. That pdf/article you posted is all "news" to me. I read two pages and was already going "whoa...wow".

While I still ideally dream and wish the DC Universe could be a fantasy comics world that did not reflect or include "our world" (e.g. religion) [see my orginal post many pages back], I now understand that is not going to happen. I can envision some benefits to a Muslim superhero. Whether the market would support it is another matter.

BTW, I have written a letter to my relative who is a director at a large American media company [that shall remain nameless]. I asked him his thoughts on censorship in America. If I get a reply, I shall post it here.


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