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timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 6:38 AM

> You're Indonesian? Cool, that makes us neighbours.
> Indonesia is a great place to be in although I can't
> stand bahasa Indonesia because I'm used to Malay or
> bahasa Malaysia.President Yudhoyohno(sp?) seems like
> a very capable man. And by the by, despite it's
> Byzantine politics, Malaysia is not as corrupt as
> Indonesia or Pakistan.

Agreed, but little things like women's rights need to be addressed quickly there. I am not Indonesian, but have and do still live there. I own a home inJakarta and one in the states. My wife is Indonesian and my children both. It amazes me that you blame the cultuee of Indonesia for the violence when in fact, it was never like this before wahhabist infiltration.

I try to refer to your faith always as the faith of Islam, which is a genralization in itself because I've experience so many varied forms of Islam sometimes they dont even look like the same religion.

I will say this, the most recent Islamic bombings in Indonesia ave been attribued to Malaysian wahhabist interests. Take that for what it is. Its not all Indonesia's fault.

Message was edited by: timmmythekaye

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 6:46 AM

> Ouch. Starting to be very sensitive here [smile]

> As an Indonesian woman (there goes my secret ID!), I
> am compelled to join the discourse. I'm not a Moslem,
> but I understand that in addition to many extrimists
> in Indonesia, I have many moderate Moslem friends who
> are dismayed and frustated with the bombing, killing,
> etc that their so called 'Moslem' friend do in the
> name of God.

Let me repeat most of the muslims I've met a dear sweet people who would'nt hurt a fly. Yet, it doesn't change the point that a minority of extremists make worhsip of other religions not just uncomfortable, but deadly. I call on the "moderate" muslims to clean up their backyard in the same way I expect Americans to clean up hteir back yard. To point the fingers at Israel, the UK or the USA and say they've brought this on their own is ridiuculous, Islam asia whole must renounce this violence and stop glorifying it or I am afraid the world will get uglier and NOONE will win and EVERYONE will die.
>
> And thus, in the midst of everything ***** in my
> country, there are people who still believe in the
> power of universal love, compassion and appreciation
> towards one another. It's definitely not easy being
> an Indonesian now (perhaps parallel to being an
> American when Bush attacked Iraq - no offense...).

None taken. Let's be clear, Iraq and the West have been provoking each other for decades, this is nothing new and almost inevitable, as atrocious as it is on both side, avoidable by both sides. Its a whole lot easier being American, becuase within our borders our rights are protected and muslims and Jews and Christians and atheists a like are free from being killed because of their faith.

> But there are people here (of all religions,
> traditions, and races) who are fighting peacefully
> for the peace of Indonesia, and I am one of them.

Agreed, in the mean time their are millions afraid to worship freely or convert to anything other than Islam for fear of their lives.

>
> A very interesting ads in our newspaper said:
> there is the word 'ONE' in IndONEsia. We as a
> nation will be able to get out of this turmoil safely
> and in peace.
>
> And this is where my Wonder Woman fandom comes in: I
> have faith in that. The peace for not only my
> country, but also for the whole planet.
>
> And also where my Batman fandom kick in: the
> persistence in the fight for what I believe in.
>
> [supergrin]

so much real life for the comics!

You go girl and when you get their, start fighting for womens rights there too.

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 6:49 AM

timmmythekaye, you raise excellent points. I think we agree on much, and we disagree on a few "nitpicky" things. Some of your points actually touch on points raised in earlier posts (including a couple of mine).

Regarding the age of Islam (or any religion for that matter):
Historians try to assign dates to things, including religions. Most scholars date "Islam" to the year that Mohammed encountered an angel. I subscribe to that "dating", hence my statement about Islam being "younger". If one sees Islam as a continuation [as the Bahai web site below mentions] of a religion, then one can make a case that it is not younger.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Islam
"Islam arose in Arabia in the 7th century with the emergence of the prophet Muhammad "

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/islam/islamsbook.html#Muhammad%20and%20Foundations%20-%20to%20632%20CE

http://www.cqpress.com/context/articles/epr_islam.html
Beginning as the faith of a small community of believers in Arabia in the seventh century, Islam rapidly became one of the major world religions. The core of this faith is the belief that Muhammad (c. 570-632), a respected businessman in Mecca, a commercial and religious center in western Arabia, received revelations from God that have been preserved in the Qur'an.

http://bahai-library.com/unpubl.articles/islam.bahai.html
Islam is the religion founded on the revelation brought to humanity by Muhammad (c. 570 C.E.-632 C.E.). Muslims see it as the latest chapter in the ongoing religion of God, a religion that can be traced back through Jesus to Moses and Abraham.

One need not buy many books as I have done. Thanks to the Internet, you can simply type search for "History of Islam". Enjoy your reading.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 6:52 AM

Funny you quote Fordham, my alma mater. I did my ROTC there.

I don't disagree, only only stated that Protestant reformation happened long after and Protestant reliogns are as different from Cathloicism as it differs from Islam.

Thsoe are "younger" religions.

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 6:54 AM

timmythekaye,
[I'm at work, can't spend too much more time online here; you seem to know abut "Wahhabist mentality"] Can you post here anything about the tenets of Wahhabism?

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 7:35 AM

Oh boy. Not sure I'm the one who should be posting this but I'll give you what I recall and maybe Sandwraith or others can give an Islamic perspective, but mine is only one of an outsider looking in.

Wahhabism, as a term has been bastardized by Western Media and by propagandistic talk from non-Islamic states. That being said....it isn't a pretty movement in Islam at all. Wahhabits are also referred to as Najdis in the Muslim world.

Wahhabism is a term Wahhabists hate. The fundementalists I've met don't like attributing anything to a human but rather to Allah only. Mohammed Wahhab (sp) started a fundelmentalist Sunni Islamic movement in the 18th century (yes, this new form of Islam is VERY new) . It is my understanding that there is no interpretation of the prophets words and they are taken literally. It is the primary movement in Qatar and saudi Arabia and has large contigents in Pakistan, Afghanistan, Malaysia (who done a lot to stop its spread) and Indonesia. Al-Queada gets its mentality and sentiment from this movement.

The movement has been responsible for many acts of violence not only to foreigners but, to a greater degree, those in their own countires who don't believe in this form of Islam.

They do not believe in freedoms or liberty. They do not believe in any freedom of expression, worship, right to protect oneself, or if you are a woman, even citizenship is a luxury. To the wahhabist, women are property to be discarded at will by husbands when women have no rights at all. Music, art and science are repressed. Literacy amongst women is repressed.

Without the rise of oil, Wahhabism would probably have died, but oil money has funded and fueled this mentality. The House of Saud has perpetuated this hardline Islamic mentality even to this day, in fact, the House of Saud has probably financed more terrorism than Al quaeda could ever dream of. Yes, in other words, the world helped to make it happen. Amazing huh, we're all to blame really. Greed without retribution is a scary thing, no? It is my understanding he form of religion is so extreme that saying Ibubrofen made your headache go away is not only polytheistic and blasphemous, but also treasonous.

There is a great website written by a Muslim that gives a pretty detailed history of the movement:

http://www.ummah.net/Al_adaab/suwahhab.html

If a small group of Americans were wrecking the world, certainly people would call on the American people to end it (hopefully were are an election away from it). Is it not the same to call on moderate Muslims to stop defending this mentality by saying things like the Jews were responsible for 9-11 (and more recently Al-Jazeera has been reporting of reports Jews were responsible for the French riots and London Bombings). Why don't muslim leaders call this a lie? Why don't they call for jihad against this mentality? They will call for Jihad against an English author who writes a few "blasphemous lines" but not against a group resposible for thousands dead....interesting.

A tiny minority of priests were touching kids, but isn't it the job of mainstream Catholics to clean it up? I'd say yes. When will we begin hearing the truth about the absolute subjugation of women in many Islamic circles?

Hypocrisy is all over the face of the Western world, no doubt, but it no different for Islamic leaders as well, to claim God as your guide but turn around a subjugate the masses is a violation regardless of faith. It bothers me to hear people make excuses for it (as Sandwraith did in account to Indonesia). There is no excuse for it. Rather than defend it (or almost excuse it because of a poor economy and corruption and illiteracy), would it not be better to speak out against it regardless of the causes?

Sandwarith discounted Pakistan and Indonesia as if to say they are a minority. Well, they are the most populous muslim nations and to ignore them or call them the exception (which they are not) is almost as dangerous as the Wahhabist mentality itself.

A lot of Westerners will tell you "Fundementalist extremism" is not all of Islam. That is certainly correct, but if someone were doing bad things in the name of my faith or country, I'd speak out against it (as I have here), why are moderate muslims so afraid to speak out against this mentality is really odd to me. Although this wahhabist mentality is dangerous, pacifism toward it by the people who really suffer, other Mulsims, because of it may be the bigger crime. Making excuses for it doesn't make the clock stop ticking on the timebomb that it is.

cassrules2

Posts: 12
Registered: 2/18/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 9:04 AM

Salaam, my Brother in the House of Abraham! I am Jewish, and I agree there do not seem to be many Muslim characters. I had not thought of it before, thank you for the insight.

How would you feel about an established DC character (male or female) embracing the faith by way of conversion? It could be very interesting and readers could a learn more about Islam as the character does...

Peace and One Love. [trippy]

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 9:45 AM

I just have to point out that even as a statistical sample population, I am amazed by the diversity of readers, and I hope this is a wake up call to all those posters relying on Census Records to explain sales and choices are made by DC Demographics.

In this thread alone, you can find this isn't even about Religions in American, but religions world wide.

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 10:07 AM

Hi timmmythekaye :

Regarding "....don't disagree, only only stated that Protestant reformation happened long after and Protestant reliogns are as different from Catholicism as it differs from Islam. "

I can't disagree. I have to think about it.
Your statement reminds me about a few incidents in my life:

* I was born and reared as a Catholic; I was taught Catholicism was the only true faith. I had a Protestant uncle. I have no idea what denimination he belonged to.

* In college I met Fundamentalist Christians. One asked me, "Are you a Christian?" I replied, (thinking that of course I was) I'm a Catholic". The person replied with a question, "Yes, but are you a Christian?"
That was an eye opener and a learning experience.

* I went to The Netherlands once and visited the Museum of Religious History. There I learned about the wars between the Protestants and Catholics. They have some great exhibits.

* The end result of all this reading, traveling, and exposure to members of different groups is that I feel lucky to live in the US where (generally) one can live without fear of being killed or persecuted for one's religious beliefs. I have a tough time understanding the enmity between the Orangemen and Catholics in Northern ireland, and I have a tough time undertanding why Sunnis and Shiites seem to generally hate each other.

My feeling about religion is that it has contributed much culture, but also in the way of war. My feelings are sort of exemplified by the lyrics in John Lennon's song "Imagine".

And thanks for your insight on Wahhabism!

wellred

Posts: 1,308
From: in a quiet place
Registered: 9/29/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 10:11 AM

Imagine theres no government, but who will pave our roads?

Imagine all the people, hitting all those pot holes.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 10:13 AM

> Imagine theres no government, but who will pave our
> roads?
>
> Imagine all the people, hitting all those pot holes.

Oh if he epublicans have their way big corps will fix the highways and charge us to drive on them...

texmex1

Posts: 4,360
From: England unconquered since 1066 and counting
Registered: 4/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 11:54 AM

There might be a lack of characters that are Muslims in comics. But the most successful characters in comics were created for a mainly white audience years ago. The dearth of Muslim characters is just another symptom of the general lack of good characters in being created nowadays.

As for Muslims, there's good and bad in all people. Judge the person not the faith or the colour.
Saying that Islam is probably the religion I have the most problems with. [cowboy]

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 8:19 PM

LOL. You know Tex, when I saw you had replied to this thread I was scared shyitless that you were gonna drop a "texmex1ism" on board. Nice to see you on the thread man. Timmy, if you read my early posts you would have noticed that I have no love for Wahabiism either. In fact I would consider them filth...but that would mean I'm stooping to their level. I'm not saying that its Indonesian culture to kill destroy maim etc etc but what I was trying to say that religious fervour without the guidance of mainstream education and a lack of a stable government usually leads to unchecked violence, whether its religously/racialy/politically triggered or otherwise. We've seen this on countless occassions, the most brutal display of this was Rwanda. Outside the major cities of Indonesia in the kampung areas (that's Malay/Indonesian for village or rural) many young Muslims have no education outside of the madrasahs and as you said, they're likely 'infiltrated' or supported by Wahabiist. In the hands of a stable govenment like say...........Sing...apore (there goes the batcave...), where emphasis is put on mainstream education for all and an excellent infrastructure is in place (as oppressive as it is! We shall have our day!! [mad]

) violence or the growth of extremism can easily be nipped at the bud. I have nothing against the Indonesian people aside from the difficult language and I'm sure all the people you've met are as decent as you described them to be. I may be wrong on all counts and you may be right since you experience things first-hand there in Jakarta, so forgive this unenlightened soul and excuse my ignorance.

A convert in comics [confused]

Wasn't there a discussion like that somewhere in the 7th Heaven board? [tongue]

icha: Sufism, REAL Sufism is more or less cutting yourself off from all material things such as your home, money, love, sex etc etc. They lived the lives of wandering Buddhist monks in Japan or China and were generally hated because they were considered hypocritical. The spinning guys you talk about are technically Dervishes and to be totally honest I don't know why they spin

Timmy: CYO? Christian Youth Organization? Or is it something like Catholism Wow! from Dogma? God I loved that movie so much I got a Catholic friend of mine a bust of Buddy Christ. Seriously, what is it? A Protestant sect or something else?

Message was edited by: sandwraith

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 1, 2006 12:14 AM

> LOL. You know Tex, when I saw you had replied to this
> thread I was scared shyitless that you were gonna
> drop a "texmex1ism" on board. Nice to see you on the
> thread man. Timmy, if you read my early posts you
> would have noticed that I have no love for Wahabiism
> either. In fact I would consider them filth...but
> that would mean I'm stooping to their level. I'm not
> saying that its Indonesian culture to kill destroy
> maim etc etc but what I was trying to say that
> religious fervour without the guidance of mainstream
> education and a lack of a stable government usually
> leads to unchecked violence, whether its
> religously/racialy/politically triggered or
> otherwise. We've seen this on countless occassions,
> the most brutal display of this was Rwanda. Outside
> the major cities of Indonesia in the kampung areas
> (that's Malay/Indonesian for village or rural) many
> young Muslims have no education outside of the
> madrasahs and as you said, they're likely
> 'infiltrated' or supported by Wahabiist. In the hands
> of a stable govenment like say...........Sing...apore
> (there goes the batcave...), where emphasis is put on
> mainstream education for all and an excellent
> infrastructure is in place (as oppressive as it is!
> We shall have our day!! [mad]

) violence or the growth
> of extremism can easily be nipped at the bud. I have
> nothing against the Indonesian people aside from the
> difficult language and I'm sure all the people you've
> met are as decent as you described them to be. I may
> be wrong on all counts and you may be right since you
> experience things first-hand there in Jakarta, so
> forgive this unenlightened soul and excuse my
> ignorance.

No excuse necessary and honestly sometimes a direct pet peeves of mine on people to get a reaction. You are not ignorant by any means. You are very well versed in the State of Islam....Simply, I wanted a reaction from you on Wahhabism and honestly, as I stated, I could read within your text that you were blaming this insiduous corruption of your faith called wahhabism for many atrocities, including giving the cowboy an excuse to go to war. You just never directly stated it and I was looking to see if you would. I don't know you personally, so this in no way is directed towards you (or any Thai Muslim for that matter), My experience is in Pakistan, India, Indonesia, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Iraq, Somalia, Malaysia, Turkey, Israel, Lebanon, among others. I get the opportunity to look at things from the outside looking in in a very intimate way, I married a muslim., who converted when she moved to the States when she went to college simply "because it was the first chance" she ever got to experience something other than Islam.

It is not stooping to their level by voting in Thailand for those who want to combat terroism. Write to your politicians and tell them that is not what islam is. not what I see when I go to the Al-Jezeera website or TV channel. I see Muslims, moderate muslims, praising Bin Laden. I see the Iranian President talking about genocide and the end of all times. I see polls showing the majority of Islam respecting what Al-quaeda does in the name of Allah. I see teenagers in the streets of Jakarta with Bin Laden T-shirts hailing him like he's the next Jesus Christ (oh its a western colloqialism not a profession of faith). When will Islam speak out against it? When will the clerics begin demanding the other Muslims reject the ideology?

The whole point of my sardonic, twitty rant about want frustrates me about some Islamic circles is two fold. They do not allow for free thought or opinion and most importantly, they are holding other Muslims down more than anyone they've every attacked globally. The war isn''t just on anything not Muslim, its against everything not THEIR form of Islam. They aren't just responsible for horrible things, but as a selfproclaimed moderate Muslim who believes in coexistance, they want you gone as well.

We were talking about growth of a religion and how it coincides with conversion. Someone stated it was because"It is a chance to have God in their everyday life" or something to that tonwe, I simply stated the ugly truth, that violence and coersion help the growth of Islam as well, just a really ugly form of it.
>

>
> Timmy: CYO? Christian Youth Organization? Or is it
> something like Catholism Wow! from Dogma? God I loved
> that movie so much I got a Catholic friend of mine a
> bust of Buddy Christ. Seriously, what is it? A
> Protestant sect or something else?

Yeah, at least that's what they called it when I was a kid. It was Lutheran, Catholic and a Presby schools. Kind of like Wow! in a 60's kind of way. It was immediate post-Vatican too and all peaceful and loving with lots of guitars and Mama's and the Poppa's Crosby, Stills, Nash and Young songs as I recall. I have a buddy Christ on my dashboard, funny stuff. Dogma was brilliant and it pointed out many things that were actually in favor of Catholicsm. The Cathloic Chruch as an organization kind of turned me off on them, much in the same way Islam has. I'm sorry, I really do have issue with the way most of Islam treats women, its disgusting for lack of a better word.

CYO is Christian youth organization. They sponsored basketball, soccer and baseball leages for girls and boys and planned dances (mixers) and retreats and activities. Made religion fun for a kid. THen I grew up and realized that 99 percent of establishment sucks, regardless whether it governmental establishment or religous, I realized anything made up of humans and run by humans by its very nature, was ****** up. Spirituality for me is something very personal and I am unsure any human dictate would be any more valid than my own, whether it be a Muslim cleric or the Pope.

>
>
> Message was edited by: sandwraith

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Feb 1, 2006 12:39 AM

Sandwraith--

Aaya berbicara sedikit bahasa Malayu, dan jika dilakukan anda lalu kata saya kepada anda Mei Allah dengan anda, di kegelapan malam, dan di lampu hari!

[grin]


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