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timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 1:44 PM

> > > >I am, however, pointing out that the violence
> is
> > > techincally apart of the religion. This can't be
> > said
> > > for Judaism or Christianity
> > >
> > > The hell it can't *cough*aneyeforaneye*cough*.
> >
> >
> > That was Hammurabi, not biblical...
> >
> > althought the Old Testament does condone violence
> in
> > the name of Yahweh, the New Testament is
> emphatically
> > pacifist, regardless of the things humans have
> done
> > in the name of Christ.
>
> Right. Christians are better than Jews, but at least
> they're both better than Muslims.
>
> How silly of me to forget the hierarchy.
>
> And I'm not going to match chapter and verse with
> anyone, because the only fairy tales I read are
> comics. My point is that it's patently absurd
> to claim that any one religion is inherently peaceful
> while all others (or any one particular other) is
> bellicose by definition.

Where does it say any of that? I was talking about texts, not religions. Religions miscontrue and detroy the text by their self-interests. nowhere does anyone claim that any of them are right or wrong. Just some texts are more pacifist. you've already shown your ignorance by infusing Babylonians Legal Code into the bible, keep talking, your lack of knowledge on this subject keeps shining through. If you are really going to be against something, would'nt it be proper to learn about it first, not just what you see on the propaganda machines like the NY Times and FoxNews?

>
> The New Testament is no exception. Some really,
> really violent public policy is shaped by a
> syzygy of neo-cons and Christian fundamentlists
> trying to turn that one last fairy tale into reality.

Agreed. But where does it say that in the NT? Just because someone lies and turns things into things that they are not, doesn't make it a representation of such. If you eon't actually cite text that proves your point, why talk at all when it is apparent you know very little about the text. the reliogions that arose from the text are not the texts themselves. please read the words that are typed. Nowhere does it say any of these reliogns is better or worse. The point is the texts of the religions, regarldess of the relions interpretation of them, is pacifist in the NT. Chrsitanity also hold the OT as scritpture, therefore, it has violnet texts as well. the point was the NT didn't. Putting words in someones mouths a nisrepresenting what they said (which is what you did) is the same thing the Neo-cons do, (By the way selfproclaimed Neocons have a lot of Jewish names (wolfawitz, kissinger, goldwater, abramhoff. fleischer, Mehlman....why would the use the NT to prove a point?) If you want to infuse your political leanings into a discussion, please understand what it is you are talking about first. I ca'nt imagine a bunch of believing Jews would use the NT for the inpiration to form policy. although I agree the neoconservatism is violent and agressive and has little forethought, I disagree it is inspired by NT text, porbalby more by self-interest, oil interest and imperialistic attitudes).

>
>
> You know, there is a part of me that wants to believe
> in sentience after death against all reason just so
> that there would be some way these dumb-a$$ nutjobs
> who actively want a nuclear holocaust to
> transpire in the middle east and wipe out all life on
> earth can have their collective noses rubbed in it
> just once before dropping off into the infinite chasm
> of experiential oblivion.

eesh....what a ridiculous reactive statement. First you pounce on a group for being aggressive then you justify it for your own means. to prove someone wrong. In other words it not ok for them to kill, but its ok for everyone to die just to prove your point....silly...

>
> I kind of wish the folks who don't understand that
> the Left Behind books really are just works of
> fiction would just rapture on out of here and leave
> the planet to the able-brained.

no doubt. not the point of the post at all, but you apparently read into it whatever you pleased. Most history books are works of fiction as well...everyone has their own perspective.

>
> Of course, I don't have any kind of problem with any
> person of faith who understands that scripture is
> comprised entirely of allegory and
> parable .

Agreed, and again show me where the NT espouses where its ok to kill another human for any reason?

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 1:47 PM

> I dont consider Atheism and Agnosticism to be
> religions.

Well the Supreme court does. Secualr Humanism is legally defined as a belief system.

> In any case, it is not difficult to write about
> people who basically have no religious beliefs -
> simply dont write anything about religion when
> writing about those characters.

Why? Atheists should hae a right to be represented as well, no?

>
>
> -- In 2001, the five largest denominations in New
> York were: Roman Catholic (about 38% of total state
> population), Baptist (7%), Methodist (6%), Jewish
> (5%) and Lutheran (3%).
> Los Angeles is home to adherents of many religions.
> The city has the second-largest Jewish community in
> the United States, after New York City. --

Not what you said. You said major religions in the USA. sorry but agasin, 1.2 percent isn't major. now in Israel, Hebrew faiths are major.

>
> Most comics writers for DC and Marvel are going to be
> located in one of these States. And are unlikely to
> have as much personal experience or interaction with
> Muslims as they will have had with Christians or
> Jews.

Really? I thought most of them worked from their homes wherever they may be. I know a lot live in England and the midwest...

> It doesnt really matter whether Islam is
> currently growing. Writers are going to write
> what they know or at least about what they are
> familiar. And most comics writers writing today will
> know something about Christians and Jews (and
> atheists and agnostics) and are likely to know more
> about Buddhism, Confucianism or Hinduism than Islam.

It doesn't matter? If a target audience, assuming they wantb to target it is growing, that would seem to be the perfect group to target, not a shrinking one.

docsavage

Posts: 713
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:23 PM

One thing that a lot of people don't know or ignore is how "profit" drives almost everything in the US. History and court cases show that on occasion a "racist" will ignore profit to support his beliefs, but those instances have grown rarer in the last thirty years.

For better or worse, this is a market society. Corporations don't care about people. Why did corporations change the "Personnel Department" to "Human Resources"?--- because we are just resources to be used and eventually discarded. I claim that corporations look at sales and only sales. If demographics come into, it is for the purpose of market segmentation.

Thus, I applaud the use of statistics in this thread to answer the question of whether there would even be "general enough" interest in an ongoing Muslim comic character (Recall there has been at least one guest appearance in JLA).

In short, if the market demand is there, then companies will [eventually] do it (whatever it is].

Yes, some companies have to be dragged, kicking and screaming. Look at the American car industry. Thirty years after the first oil crisis, and they still can't get it right. (BTW, I own a hybrid!] That is incompetence, not bigotry.

Population figures and all that census stuff indicate that the target audience and thus the demand isn't there for an ongoing Muslim character by a giant corporation such as DC or Marvel.

Perhaps a smaller company could market a character and sustain the title. I recall how just twenty years ago or so it was difficult for any company to market a black superhero. [I'm old, so twenty years ago isn't that long ago for me.]

Sandwraith [and others], I want to touch on two more things: They relate to what is wrong with Islam, or I should be fair and say, what I charge is wrong with Islam.

1) Islam may be 'immature'. [I'm not sure that is the best word]

While Christianity and some other religions have had their "bloody" periods, generally those religions---or their followers---have matured. They don't try to convert the rest of the world, they don't treat non-believers as second-class citizens, they don't make it a crime to leave the religion. In countries dominated by these mature religions, there aren't laws against practicing other religions.

What religion still condones or preaches all the above things? You know the answer.

2) Because Islam seems to have a lot of fanatic followers who are not tolerant of other religions this causes "hot spots" around the world.

Back in the nineties, a British historian coined the term "the bloody borders of Islam". The historian noted how violence begins once the percentage of Islamic people in a country becomes "significant" (My word here, because I don't recall the specific percentage or words the historian used). The guy also noted how once Islam is entrneched in a country, the followers export the violence to the countries next door.

This is evident by reading the newspapers and news sites on the Internet. Or, Look at a map or a globe. Look for a country where separatists or terrorists want autonomy or self-rule and where this is ongoing violence. There is a strong chance the people are Muslim.

Consider: The Phillipines, Thailand, Indonesia, Malaysia, Chechnya, Sudan, and so on.

I don't know WHY this is. Is it the religion itself or is it an ongoing sub-culture, like neo-nazism, that can't be eradicated? Wiser people than I are studying this.

I do know that I fear the same thing could start in the USA once Muslims become a "significant" percentage of the population in the US. If you disagree, you should consider how it is happening NOW in Europe.

bcbdla

Posts: 7,394
Registered: 11/14/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:28 PM

> Well the Supreme court does. Secular Humanism is
> legally defined as a belief system.
It's a belief system, but not an organized faith or religion. Again, very easy to depict how Atheism or Agnosticism affects a character's daily life - simply don't reference religion, prayer or churches.

> Why? Atheists should have a right to be represented
> as well, no?
Again, easy to address by leaving religion out of the character's experience altogether. It's more difficult to accurately depict how Islam impacts someone's daily life when you know almost nothing about the religion.

> Not what you said. You said major religions in the
> USA. sorry but again, 1.2 percent isn't major. now
> in Israel, Hebrew faiths are major.
The point is that Islam is not major enough for writers to have a decent understanding of how the faith might affect the daily lives of their characters. Judaism is major enough that writers are likely to have some knowledge of how Jews are affected by their faith.

> Really? I thought most of them worked from their
> homes wherever they may be. I know a lot live in
> England and the midwest...
Even if they rarely go into the office, they still had to be educated somewhere. And are more likely to have interacted with any amount of frequency with Jews than with Muslims.
More Jews in the midwest than Muslims.
I'd say some writers are from England - not a lot. And it is, of course, a brit who introduced Dust, not an American. Someone who is more likely to have interaction with Muslims than the average American.
And, of course, X-Men is heavily focused on representing diversity.

> It doesn't matter? If a target audience, assuming
> they want to target it is growing, that would seem
> to be the perfect group to target, not a shrinking
> one.
I don't think they have enough interactions with Muslims to percieve them as a significant target audience. I dunno that they perceive Jews as a target audience either, but they are more likely to interact with Jews often enough that it occurs to writers from time to time to represent the Jewish community in comics.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:30 PM

docsavage, well said!!

Except for the use of maturity. Maturity is a subjective trait, mature to one culture is immature to another, like morals, I suppose. Christianity as a religion had experienced a Reformation separating it from State (although it still has influence) whereas the Islam has not experinced this in much of the world, although it has in some (Indonesia and India being two).

So if you consider Western though more enlightened, its a personal perspective, not a more mature one, necessarily.

Message was edited by: timmmythekaye

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:33 PM

> > Well the Supreme court does. Secular Humanism is
> > legally defined as a belief system.
> It's a belief system, but not an organized faith or
> religion. Again, very easy to depict how Atheism or
> Agnosticism affects a character's daily life - simply
> don't reference religion, prayer or churches.

Let me rephrase, the Supreme Court has legally defined secualr humanism as a religion -Torcaso v. Watkins (367 U.S. 488- date-1961).. That better?
>
> > Why? Atheists should have a right to be
> represented
> > as well, no?
> Again, easy to address by leaving religion out of the
> character's experience altogether. It's more
> difficult to accurately depict how Islam impacts
> someone's daily life when you know almost nothing
> about the religion.

I agree. I said from the beginnig the modern religion should be kept out of comics.
>
> > Not what you said. You said major religions in
> the
> > USA. sorry but again, 1.2 percent isn't major.
> now
> > in Israel, Hebrew faiths are major.
> The point is that Islam is not major enough for
> writers to have a decent understanding of how the
> faith might affect the daily lives of their
> characters. Judaism is major enough that writers are
> likely to have some knowledge of how Jews are
> affected by their faith.

from what I've seen they don't have an understanding of most religions.
>
> > Really? I thought most of them worked from their
> > homes wherever they may be. I know a lot live in
> > England and the midwest...
> Even if they rarely go into the office, they still
> had to be educated somewhere. And are more likely to
> have interacted with any amount of frequency with
> Jews than with Muslims.

Agreed.

> More Jews in the midwest than Muslims.
> I'd say some writers are from England - not a
> lot. And it is, of course, a brit who introduced
> Dust, not an American. Someone who is more likely to
> have interaction with Muslims than the average
> American.
> And, of course, X-Men is heavily focused on
> representing diversity.

Unless the writier was raised in Detroit or Buffalo where there are larger Muslim populations...
>
> > It doesn't matter? If a target audience, assuming
> > they want to target it is growing, that would seem
> > to be the perfect group to target, not a shrinking
> > one.
> I don't think they have enough interactions with
> Muslims to percieve them as a significant target
> audience. I dunno that they perceive Jews as a target
> audience either, but they are more likely to interact
> with Jews often enough that it occurs to writers from
> time to time to represent the Jewish community in
> comics.

agreed, im not sure DC should be targeting religous groups at all...

bcbdla

Posts: 7,394
Registered: 11/14/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:42 PM

> While Christianity and some other religions have had
> their "bloody" periods, generally those
> religions---or their followers---have matured. They
> don't try to convert the rest of the world, they
> don't treat non-believers as second-class citizens,
> they don't make it a crime to leave the religion. In
> countries dominated by these mature religions, there
> aren't laws against practicing other religions.
Most certainly - many, many Christians try to convert the rest of the world and treat non-believers like second-class citizens.
The difference is not reflective of the "maturity" of the religion, rather it's the "maturity" of the countries. And truly that's not "maturity" either, but fear of the wide-scale use of WMDs that can wipe out human life if we aren't about how we interact with other nations.
Christianity no longer has the political power to enforce laws or wage war, but that has nothing to do with the "maturity" of the religion nor does it prevent missionaries from continuing to do what they can to convert the rest of the world. They simply have very limited ability to enforce their views at them moment.

bcbdla

Posts: 7,394
Registered: 11/14/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:12 PM

> Let me rephrase, the Supreme Court has legally
> defined secular humanism as a religion -Torcaso v.
> Watkins (367 U.S. 488- date-1961).. That better?
It's a technicality which is largely irrelevant to the point at hand. Still not an organized faith or organized religion. Also depends on how the definition is being used. Secular Humanism may need to be legally defined as a religion so that non-religious people retain certain freedoms and rights.
But it has little, if anything, to do with the point that it's easy to depict that lifestyle in comics without being stereotypical.

> I said from the beginning the modern
> religion should be kept out of comics.
I think it's fine to touch on religious beliefs from time to time. It's an aspect of life that some characters should be dealing with.
It's simply better done by people who have decent experience interacting with the specific demographic -whatever it might be- so that it doesn't come across as stereotypical.

> Unless the writer was raised in Detroit or Buffalo
> where there are larger Muslim populations...
Raised?
There may be larger Muslim populations there now .
That doesn't mean that current writers were raised interacting with them.
Even in Detroit and Buffalo, I'm quite sure the average white person interacts with Jews more often than they interact with Muslims. And, in any case, I doubt that we would find that a significant percentage of current writers hail from Detroit or Buffalo.

A more accurate reflection of American demograhics would be nice to have in comics. More non-stereotypical Arabs, Chinese, Koreans, Indians would be great.
It's just a slow journey getting there.
I think we'll see more as the creative staff continues to become more diverse.

sandwraith

Posts: 815
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 7:23 PM

> Whoa whoa...easy now guys,this thread seems to be
> taking on a life of its own.

Couldn't have possibly seen that coming.

You know...I told a friend about how I started this thread and he warned me that I might have opened a Pandora's Box...And he's a Catholic. Just kidding. I'm glad to see that this thread has opened an intelligent debate and am pleased with the posts it's received. All of you have very valid points as to why there should or shouldn't be Muslim characters in comics and why there aren't many writers who would choose to write Muslim characters. I am curious about Neo-Nazism thoug and how it relates to Islam. I'm not condemning that point of view mind you, I'm just curious to know what it means.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 7:59 PM

> > Whoa whoa...easy now guys,this thread seems to be
> > taking on a life of its own.
>
> Couldn't have possibly seen that coming.
>
> You know...I told a friend about how I started this
> thread and he warned me that I might have opened a
> Pandora's Box...And he's a Catholic. Just kidding.
> I'm glad to see that this thread has opened an
> intelligent debate and am pleased with the posts it's
> received. All of you have very valid points as to why
> there should or shouldn't be Muslim characters in
> comics and why there aren't many writers who would
> choose to write Muslim characters. I am curious about
> Neo-Nazism thoug and how it relates to Islam. I'm not
> condemning that point of view mind you, I'm just
> curious to know what it means.

I did not post that so I cannot answer it. There has been some talk about comparing extremist Islamic thought to Nazism (I guess since both are anti-semitic, they are the same (NOT)) its what people that have no real point to make do. They compare everyone to Hitler, Clinton was hitler, now Bush is Hitler, Bin Laden is Htiler, Chavez is hitler, Chriac is hitler, if youre not compared to hitler at some point youre not a world leader....et al et al...

Somehow they think its the thing to do when in fact, there is little comparison...

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 8:14 PM

> > Let me rephrase, the Supreme Court has legally
> > defined secular humanism as a religion -Torcaso v.
> > Watkins (367 U.S. 488- date-1961).. That
> better?
> It's a technicality which is largely irrelevant to
> the point at hand.

Oh not really, its the law. Therefore it has everything to do with the subject at hand. Why not represent them? Because you don't agree with the Supreme court doesn't make the point moot....Technicality? Just becuase you don't consider it a religion does not mean it isn't.....

Still not an organized
> faith or organized religion.

Wrong, again.

>Also depends on
> how the definition is being used. Secular Humanism
> may need to be legally defined as a religion so that
> non-religious people retain certain freedoms and
> rights.

Nope, wrong again. Read the opinion of the court before you open your mouth, you are simply wrong here.

There are organized secular groups that do things in the name of secualr humanism. Are you espousing that the secular ACLU isn't organized? What about the Communist party? They are not organized? You are so lost on this one...

> But it has little, if anything, to do with the point
> that it's easy to depict that lifestyle in comics
> without being stereotypical.

Wrong again, an atheist lifestyle is a lifestyle just the same. Are you really that egocentric, my family is Buddhist and doesn't believe in a deity and is not, ahem, organized, does that make it not a religion? Please.........Atheists are broken up in organized groups just like Deists are.

>
> > I said from the beginning the modern
> > religion should be kept out of comics.
> I think it's fine to touch on religious beliefs from
> time to time. It's an aspect of life that some
> characters should be dealing with.
> It's simply better done by people who have decent
> experience interacting with the specific demographic
> -whatever it might be- so that it doesn't come
> e across as stereotypical.

Why? So a Brit can't write a historical context of Japan in the 12th century? Why not? So in your world only someone who has actually experience things can write about them....and because I know two Jews doesn't mean I know a lick about the Hebrew Faith. Why right about anytihng past 100 years old then? We didn't experince 14th century Indonesia, so therefore noone can write about it? What?

>
> > Unless the writer was raised in Detroit or Buffalo
> > where there are larger Muslim populations...
> Raised?
> There may be larger Muslim populations there
> now .
> That doesn't mean that current writers were
> raised interacting with them.

They've been there quite some time. Again you are wrong. It amazes my the ethnocentricity of some people.

> Even in Detroit and Buffalo, I'm quite sure the
> average white person interacts with Jews more often
> than they interact with Muslims.

Think again. Why do hey have ot be white? You know you are becoming more and more clear here, your bigotry is shining through...there really aren't a lot of, ahem, "white" people in Detroit.

>And, in any case, I
> doubt that we would find that a significant
> percentage of current writers hail from Detroit or
> Buffalo.

And you know this how?

>
> A more accurate reflection of American demograhics
> would be nice to have in comics. More
> non-stereotypical Arabs, Chinese, Koreans, Indians
> would be great.

So 1 percent of characters should be jewish and 75 percent should be christian? Silly thoughts...Just the fact that you can them Indians, Jews, etc is stereotypical in itself...one race, the human race.

> It's just a slow journey getting there.
> I think we'll see more as the creative staff
> continues to become more diverse.

fluxknot

Posts: 240
Registered: 7/15/04

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 8:16 PM

I generally feel the religions of characters really shouldn't matter--my personal views on religion make it difficult for me sometimes...

It seems when a character is depicted as a stereotype--that is what they become...just the token jewish character, the token muslim, etc...

DC has that beloved country Khandaq---a pretty blatabt rip of Iraq---but I never consider that it is a country of predominantly one faith, just as I never think of it when Superman flies through Metropolis....

It does seem that if we ,the readers, try a little we can theorize all of the extremists are Muslim---but I honestly think little fo it.

As for specific characters, you are indeed correct-few if any are portrayed as always positive. I am Spanish- American and often when I read characters of Latin or Hispanic origin I find they are so surreal...the actions, words, and general mannerisms are almost always some poor sterotype...

But maybe its only my views clouding the intention of the author.

sandwraith

Posts: 815
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 8:31 PM

doc,all religions try to enlighten the world by spreading their faith. Don't take my word for it, read about all the Chaplains that try to spread the Good Word in countries like Iraq and Afghanistan.

Islam DID have laws for non-Muslims in the Middle-Ages, the Dhimmi tax is something most Christians like to rub in our face,about how inhumane and unfair it was.Alright,lets talk about Christianity in the Middle-Ages starting with their open mistreatment of Jews. After taking Jerusalem which was open to all three faiths before Godfrey and his merry crew of Crusaders 'Cleansed' the streets of the Holy City in Muslim-Jewish blood, the ever -pious Christians of Europe shut off Jerusalem from the Jews and Muslims,Jews in particular were given far less rights than Muslims.Who do you think the Jews sided with?

In Almoravide Spain, the centre of learning in the Middle-Ages, it opened it universities to all of different faiths and nationalities,some of it's prized Scientists,Philosophers and Physicians were of either Jewish or Christian decent.Why oh why would the Ultra-Elitist Muslims of old allow them such rights?

The Spanish Inqusition where the Spainards under the Bible-thumping leadership of Ferdinand and Isabella tried to wipe out evry Muslim,Jew and Illuminist within Europe.Where do you think these people ran to?That's right,Muslim territory.

As fussy as the Muslims were about the faith,they never forced conversions through torture as widely as Christians did back then. The Dhimmi tax was way more cheaper that the taxes imposed by the Byzantines or the Crusaders and with the exception of a few rules(non-Muslims weren't allowed to carry weapons or ride steeds,only camels and donkeys),they were allowed to open businesses,practice their faith openly and even allowed government posts.

Hell who do you think opened Jerusalem to Jews after nearly 90 years of Crusader rule? Saladin,the Enemy of Christendom.

Muslims today don't have any rules against none-Muslims. In Emirate states,they still practice the dhimmi tax to some extent but nothing more.Look at other countries like Malaysia?They are predominantly Muslim but every other race&religion flourishes there. Look at the Kingdom of Brunei.Did you know that they have no taxes there for ALL the citizens regardless of what race or religion the practice?And they're a peaceful bunch too.Never will you meet a more simple and pleasant people that people from Brunei. There is animosity among non-Muslims in predominantly Muslim countries of course, like the animosity Muslims feel in Europe or America simply because they're not amongst their own. Non-Muslims aren't lynched of the streets for practising their faith nor are they blamed for any socio-political problems as Muslims were in Bosnia (remember that?).

I'm no expert on Seperatism, but I believe that the desire for seperation originates from the feeling of animosity. Let's look at Phillipines, which even without without the presence of Abu Sayaff, is a political mess. In a country that is roughly 90% Roman Catholic and where Islam is just a footnote that is usually ignored, you're bound to want out if you're a Muslim. Funny thing while America completely condemns such calls for seperation in one of its Allies' country, it secretly smiles when Chinese Muslims in the People's Republic call for independence, so it makes the politics of Seperation all the more complicated, religiously-driven or otherwise.And I find you're example of Malaysia rather dubious. Why would the Muslims in Malaysia want a seperation when they make up nearly 70% of the population? Dude,I live next to Malaysia and the only case of seperation anxiety is way up North in Thailand where Thaksin is gettin a lot of heat from the predominantly Muslim southern Thailand. And the thing in Phillipines is simply a humongous socio-political ****-up spawning from corruption that goes as far up as the Presidency itself. No suprise there though, Gloria ain't exactly a sterling example of Iron Leadership.

Message was edited by: sandwraith

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 8:35 PM

> Neo-Nazism thoug and how it relates to Islam. I'm not
> condemning that point of view mind you, I'm just
> curious to know what it means.

I did not post that so I cannot answer it. There has been some talk about comparing extremist Islamic thought to Nazism (I guess since both are anti-semitic, they are the same (NOT)) its what people that have no real point to make do. They compare everyone to Hitler, Clinton was hitler, now Bush is Hitler, Bin Laden is Htiler, Chavez is hitler, Chriac is hitler, if youre not compared to hitler at some point youre not a world leader....et al et al...

Somehow they think its the thing to do when in fact, there is little comparison...

Actually, I think that was a misunderstanding.

I think Neo-Nazi and Neo-Cons were confused.

Sandwraith: The Neo-Cons, which is best defined by Pat Buchanana(Sp?), was formed by L.B.J. Liberals, that jumped ship during Vietnam, and joined the Republican party. Meanwhile Republicans like Howard Dean and Hilary Clinton jumped ship and became Democrats because of Neo-Con influence within the party. Complicated stuff.

What do they stand for?... Neo-Cons most notably are known for the support for Zionist. The belief that reformed in the 20s, and sought to recolonize Palestein, which at the time was under British Mandate. The Jewish migration into "Israel" has been on going since then. I think you know all this Wraith, so I'll try and sum-up.

A Neo-Con spends more than Liberals were ever claimed to have, and without the balanced budget. They are in majority Christian, but support Jewish policy, so that Israel will be there for both. Any country in the middle east, made up of Muslims is a threat to Israel. Therefore, America has posed a hostility towards these countries... Except for Saudi Arabia which is totally hypocritical seeing as how they are more guilty than almost everything Iraq did.

Conservative - Balanced Budget, Healthy Skeptism towards foreign war, religious and racial freedoms, low taxes all around, small government, and staying out of private lives.

Any time the Republicans aren't holding true to these values, it is because of Neo-cons. The current administration is a Neo-Con administration.

I highly recommend "Where the Right Went Wrong" Pat Buchanan.

pariah04

Posts: 683
Registered: 1/27/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 9:02 PM

The current administration is not ammassed with Neo-Cons. Conservatives? Yes. But there aren't as many Neo-Cons as most liberals assert. And even so, I don't find that description totally fair.

The New Testament is no exception. Some really, really violent public policy is shaped by a syzygy of neo-cons and Christian fundamentlists trying to turn that one last fairy tale into reality.

Fairy tale? The New Testament is backed up by multiple historians and has been deemed historically credible by secular culture through empirical discovery. And this isn't even mentioning the great amount of empirical evidence found in accordance with the Old Testament's history.

Simply because an inherently violent philosophy is taken to its logical extension, that does not mean it can be compared to another philosophy simply because they're both ground in religious origins. The antics and disposition of the more adamant and violent Muslims out there today are demonstrating a legitimate branch of their religion's philosophy. The same can't be said of a Christian who acts violently without proper merit.


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