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blue_entropy

Posts: 232
Registered: 6/13/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 9:30 PM

I'm a Muslim myself, and I wondered about that question a lot.
Do we need a Muslim comic hero? and if we do, what would he be like? Here are my ideas on how to create a good Muslim superhero

1- Powers
-------
A non-powered Muslim hero would be best since Islam is essentially a realistic,practical religion. A simplistic secret origin (the same kind as say, a radioactive spider) would also work. The biggest mistake would be trying to tie Islam somehow to the source of the hero's power. In the best case it would lead to lame stories and in the worst an ignorant writer could do something considered a blasphemy by us Muslims!

It is best to make a hero who happens to be Muslim, rather than a hero 'powered by Islam'. Except if that power is motivation

2- Character Traits
----------
2a) Gender

In my opinion, the character should be male. Not that I'm against strong women or anything ( Islamic history is full of strong women) but I'd rather not go through the controversy of Muslim women. I mean, if the stories were in the real world, I bet every 5 minutes a character would ask her "are you oppressed in your country?" and she would shout "for the last time no!". And how would she be drawn? Let's just not go there unless the writer is intelligent ,respects other religions, and doesn't do cliches. Only someone like Brian K vaughen would be able to pull off a good Muslim female character, and only if he spent a year or two studying Islam

2b) Age
mmmmm, doesn't matter really. any of the typical superhero age ranges should work
2c) Country
Should he be American or from the Middle East? An immigrant perhaps? American is good for me. Middle Eastern is okay too as long as he doesn't keep saying "the president of my country keeps oppressing us". Yes there are bad ME presidents but they have been written to death. Make him come from one of the good ME countries for a change.

3- Costume
----------
Traditional superhero cosume or something more 'Islamic'? Pehaps a mix of the two would work. Something like the orignal Azrael costume would be cool and look a bit oriental. Or maybe something like this ( http://www.istockphoto.com/file_thumbview_approve/230201/2/istockphoto_230201_warrior.jpg)

As for my opinion regarding Muslim characters in existing comics, I think one of the best Muslim comic characters was Naif El-Sheikh, the leader of the JLElite( by conincidence, his traits seem to align with what I wrote above). The comics world needs more Naif Al-Sheikh and less "Islamic Terrorist #112".

jasobridge

Posts: 13
From: Stuck in a cosmic storm at the center of the universe
Registered: 1/29/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 10:46 PM

Excuse me but I haven't read the previous replies so I'm replying to the topic itself without knowledge of was has been stated or commented upon previously.

That said, I'm all for a Muslim comic character on the condition that he/she be portrayed properly. I'm a Muslim myself and I don't want to see a character who would give the wrong idea about the religion I believe in. I'm not American but I would prefer him/her to be one. There are around seven million Muslims in the USA and having one American Muslim as a hero seems logical to me. Plus it would stop all the alienating people (American or otherwise) have towards Muslims these days.

Again this is on the condition that the character is portrayed in a proper manner and that no transgressions are made.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 1:07 AM

wow, look at all the muslims who read comic books...seems there's a demagraphic out there after all....

[shades]

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 1:20 AM

>
> Actually, I think that was a misunderstanding.
>
> I think Neo-Nazi and Neo-Cons were confused.

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to the neocon tag "neofacist islamic extremism" that dick cheney loves to talk about...hearing the admin compare the Iranian President to Hitler. Great diplomacy.

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 5:33 AM

Atttempt to clarify use of the word "mature":

I wrote how I wasn't sure it is the right word.
I did not mean it in the sense of a mature, responsible individual, e.g. "she is a mature person".

I meant it more in the sense that of "a life sycle" {I'm still not sure if I can accurately convey this).
Christianity is approx 2000 years old.
Islam about 1300.

For its first 1200 - 1600 years Christianity grew rapidly and either attracted willing followers or forcibly converted people (including Amerindians, Africans, Jews, and Muslims). Sometime after that, the growth slowed. Fewer people converted. One way to describe this is to say it matured.

I have read articles that have alleged Christianity is dying; I have read some that say religion is dying. I disagree with both views, but I do hold the "maturing" viewpoint.

BTW, I think Catholicism could be dying. Except in a few areas (Afica and South America), Catholicism is said to ve losing adherents. The number of priests and nuns is dropping daily. Brazil, once almost 100% Catholic, is now only aout 73% Catholic (by some estimates). The difference is said to be due to conversions to mosre fundamental or agelical Christian/Protestant denominations.

Islam is said to be the world's fastest growing religion.
It has done a great job of making a relationship with God an integral part of each person's daily life. That is a good thing. One could say that Islam has a fervor that few Christian denominations can match.

So, I allege that Islam is younger, has fervor, and is still growing. It has not matured to the point where it is not growing and lost fervor.

I hope this attempt at clarification helps explain my previous note. I actually mean it as a compliment to Islam.

I thank Sandwraith and others for the geographical and historical information. This thread has been very entertaining and informative!

icha2005

Posts: 613
Registered: 3/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 5:53 AM

Killface:This has got to be the BEST THREAD THIS MONTH! I should be doing homework right now, but I had to post.

I am loving what you guys are putting out.

Sandwraith, my friend, I wish everyone had such an indepth knowledge of the history of Israel, and Ireland. Catholic and Jewish followers have also been creators of terrorism, claiming their faith as a divine right to kill.

Keep it up fellas. Just remember to show some respect.

Killface, Sandwraith, and others, I don't browse this particular MB quite often (I'm a WW 'follower' [supergrin]

), but this thread is definitely one of the most inspiring one.

To stay tuned with the theme: I also directly thought of Janissary or Selma Tolon, the heroine from Turkey. http://www.weirdspace.dk/DC%20Comics/Selma%20Tolon.htm

In addition to the JLA, she appeared in WW circa#175, Girls Frenzy arc (when Diana battled Circe and recruited lots of heroines to help her).

Other than that, I believe in humanity, in universal compassion that encompasses not only all species on Earth, but also in this Universe (or Multiverse...). Thus, I believe that all traditions should and actually do have the same spirit of universal compassion. The messages are tailored to suit any traditions or communities that the Prophet met or interacted with (i.e., Jesus' message might be 'different' from Mohammad's or Buddha's or Krishna's, but deep within), there's this universal pearl or lotus for everyone to reach. By the way, a Moslem friend of mine said that about 70% of the 99 names/natures of Allah actually reflects feminine natures (e.g., compassion, forgiving, etc) rather than masculine ones (e.g., the ultimate 'punisher' - what's the word...ESL - English as Second Language. Sorry...). Very interesting.

I myself is more of a girl raised in Hinduism tradition, fall in love with the Zen Buddhism tradition, highly embracing neo-paganism (and all nature-related traditions). I also love sufi tradition (sufi whirling is sooo...intoxicating, exciting...) and think that Jesus is a really great Son of Man [love]

What a way to attract me to the 'dark' corner of Batman MB! [love]

pariah04

Posts: 683
Registered: 1/27/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 6:54 PM

BTW, I think Catholicism could be dying. Except in a few areas (Afica and South America), Catholicism is said to ve losing adherents. The number of priests and nuns is dropping daily. Brazil, once almost 100% Catholic, is now only aout 73% Catholic (by some estimates). The difference is said to be due to conversions to mosre fundamental or agelical Christian/Protestant denominations.

I don't believe it'll die. Its population may get lower and lower, but I believe it'll persevere.

One could say that Islam has a fervor that few Christian denominations can match.

Speaking as a Catholic, I'm saddened to concur with this observation. Most people I meet nowadays, who call themselves Catholic, are actually just lapsed indidividuals who title themselves Catholic because that's how their parents tried to raise them--Or perhaps because they want to buy more credibility in an argument regarding Christianity.

So, I allege that Islam is younger, has fervor, and is still growing. It has not matured to the point where it is not growing and lost fervor.

Islam is not younger than Christianity.

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 8:12 PM

Well, it is and it isn't younger.

Like Christianity and many other religions it claims roots to, Well... Way Back.

But, it's actual historical origination as an organized faith was after the Catholic/Orthodox. In fact, they claim Jesus as a profit.

To comment on something someone else posted earilier about Census, I think that may be a little out of touch. I meet new Muslims all the time it seems like - AND GUYS, I LIVE IN OKLAHOMA!!! People get burned for not being Baptist around here! [lol]

Since 1999, with all the news about Islam, I think many Musilms have not only Migrated to America, but many converts now exist that had not before. That info is 8 years old, and what a major 8 years it has been for Islam.

pariah04

Posts: 683
Registered: 1/27/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 8:23 PM

I don't want to sound nitpicky, but its roots aren't its core. It came from Judaism, but that doesn't mean that you can say it's as old as Judaism. That's not to say I mind my religion being compared to Jewish practices though.

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 8:40 PM

I don't want to sound nitpicky, but its roots aren't its core. It came from Judaism, but that doesn't mean that you can say it's as old as Judaism. That's not to say I mind my religion being compared to Jewish practices though.

That's not nitpicky.

I was refering in a broader sence the claim that many religions make about their age.

Church of Latter Day Saints for instance claim to date back to the 12(?) tribes of Israel.

Does that make it so?, Well, who am I to judge. [supergrin]

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 8:47 PM

>
> I have read articles that have alleged Christianity
> is dying; I have read some that say religion is
> dying. I disagree with both views, but I do hold the
> "maturing" viewpoint.
>
> BTW, I think Catholicism could be dying.

that's laughable. you really need to posit some proof of that...you mentioned except for Latin America and Africa (and North American in a strong way). Do you also realize these are the only two continents of the world where population is increasing in heavier numbers? In other words where people have a higher birth rate that death rate Cathlocism is growing (by the way, the middle east is in Africa). Islam and Christianity continue to grow. Cathlocism ain't going anywhere, especially considering there has been more ecumencial work than ever, most Christian faiths are coming together.

Atheism on the other hand is growing exponentially...

Except in a
> few areas (Afica and South America), Catholicism is
> said to ve losing adherents. The number of priests
> and nuns is dropping daily.

Its call vocation reform. You'll see it. Clergy across the board is way down.

Brazil, once almost 100%
> Catholic, is now only aout 73% Catholic (by some
> estimates). The difference is said to be due to
> conversions to mosre fundamental or agelical
> Christian/Protestant denominations.

Yet still Christian. Yet the number of catholics is still larger than it was.
>
> Islam is said to be the world's fastest growing
> religion.
> It has done a great job of making a relationship with
> God an integral part of each person's daily life.
> That is a good thing. One could say that Islam has a
> fervor that few Christian denominations can match.

You really believe that the reason for the trend? Couldn't have anything to do with population growth? Could it be in many muslim nations its illegal to convert from Islam to another faith? It could'nt be that either could it...look I believe that most Muslims are good god fearing decent people trying to raise families, but to insuate that Islam is growing simply because of spiritual matters based on god being part of their everyday life is laughable as well. Coersion, brainwashing, the subjugation of women that is common is some muslim circles plays a huge part too. You make it sound as if, at least for some, they have a choice but to be muslim. In some cases, sometimes by law or sometimes simply by culture (pakistan, indonesia, saudi arabia etc. etc) you really have little choice. This can be said of all religions in history, but today we speak of the present, and presently that's the state of things. Its not rosy.

My wife is Indonesian and we spend quite a bit of time there because she was raised and lived there for 25 years. It has the largest Muslim population in the world. It is a Republic, democratically elected. It, for the most part, is a very liberal Islamic popluation---yet---culturally Islam is imposed on everyone and the Wahabbists are feared. Catholics fear to go the mass on Sunday and Chruches are being built that look like compounds with heavy security just so Christians and Hindu's can practice safely. Noone wears a cruscifix or cross for fear they will be beaten or killed.

Fear isn't spiritual liberation my friend. I am all for a frank discussion about the virtues of Islam, as long as it mixed with the truth.

You call it fervor, I call it fear.

>
> So, I allege that Islam is younger, has fervor, and
> is still growing. It has not matured to the point
> where it is not growing and lost fervor.

Not younger than protestant faiths...not even close really...

>
> I hope this attempt at clarification helps explain my
> previous note. I actually mean it as a compliment to
> Islam.
>
> I thank Sandwraith and others for the geographical
> and historical information. This thread has been very
> entertaining and informative!

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 9:44 PM

Ugh...I was afraid of the reference to Indonesia. How do I put it...Indonesia is in best description of a nation in transition...and is faring badly. The economic state of the country is a joke here in the South East.It makes Vietnam's economy look stable in comparison (which it is really). Indonesia is the largest Muslim country around but that doesn't make them in anyway smarter than other Predominantly Muslim countries or more developed for that matter. After Suharto was deposed back in the 90s post-Asian Economy crisis, the infrastructure of the country was in a word ******. Corrupted officials were making due with whatever they could salvage from that rotting government and splitting town as fast as they could leaving the country to it's own devices. Here's the problem, while the rest of the country was in economic shambles the affluent fraction of the nation's population was spared any major loses. The non-Muslim fraction. Now, in a country that estimates that only 45% of its youth actually attend schools other than madrasahs, there's going to be a lot of blood spilled. Ignorance is the excuse for them, willfull or otherwise. If you go to places like Jakarta or Bali you won't see this but if you go to Palembang or the Javanese territories, you can see the difference in education standards and otherwise. In a a manner of speaking, these people are backwards in their concept of things.

As for Muslims converting out of Islam, it's no different from how some people, especially family members would feel when A Catholic man marries a Jewish woman and converts or vice-versa. There might be a strong feeling of betrayal from pious members of the family. In the case of Indonesians, it actually lies in their culture. Look at it this way, it Southern America, the Hispanic peoples somehow grafted the Catholic faith into their own traditions. In some parts of Europe Catholism may appear in completely different forms, but it's still Catholism. As in the case of the Indonesians and Malays, Islam was grafted into the culture, so Malay culture and Islam is one and the same. You're raised a Malay and suddenly you decide to abandon your faith and culture for another. Among some races it's commonplace for people to have different religions, but among Malays or Indonesians it comes to them as a culture shock, sometimes provoking anger and yes violence. Speaking of which, there's this Christian Revival thing going on in my home country where Churches are more like social clubs where guys and girls hang out, play music, eat Pizza and other stuff in the name of God. I don't want to offend anyone but is this going on in the States too where Orthodoxy takes a back seat to "Hip" and "Happening"?

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 30, 2006 10:02 PM

>Ugh...I was afraid of the reference to Indonesia.

Now wouldn't be a good time to bring up Pakistan then, would it?

> Jakarta or Bali you won't see this but if you go to
> Palembang or the Javanese territories, you can see
> the difference in education standards and otherwise.
> In a a manner of speaking, these people are backwards
> in their concept of things.

First let me point out again that of the thousands of Muslims i've met in my life, most are hard working good honest decent working folk who love their families and wish harm on noone. Let me further point out that I am talking about a minority of Muslims in the following passages that do an immeasruable amount of damage to the human rights of the world. Regardless of WHY Indonesia is a mess, slamic groups take advantage of the mess and convert using coersion and violence and also dissuade conversion elswhere.

I understand the history, it doesn't change the facts. My point is, regardless of what a joke the corruption in Indonesia (and Maylasia) is, it does'nt change the fact that these factors help increase Islamic populations and repress conversion of any kind. I'm was'nt saying Indonesia was the pinnacle of Islamic culture, I was pointing out that Islam is growing, in part, because of coersion and violence. you have yourself admitted as much, regardless of the reasoning. I don't remember saying why Islam was coersive and violent in Indonesia, I just stated that it was.

Her family lives in Jakarta. That is where it is happening, my friend.

Bali is a Hindu Island with a tiny fraction of Indonesian population. Let me repeat a Hindu ISLAND. Therefore its isolated. On the rest of Indonesia, tens of thousands of Christians have died rather than convert.

It is very important to point out that the MOST populous Muslim country whose population is growing also affect the numbers increasing in favor of Islam.

Everyone has their own perspecitve, Muslim corruption in govenremt is as rampant as it has ever been presently. In other words 10 percent of the population that is non-muslim is at fault? Take a look around the country, its run by Muslims and its corrupt as hell.

let me quote you when you were talking about the Philipines..

"I'm no expert on Seperatism, but I believe that the desire for seperation originates from the feeling of animosity. Let's look at Phillipines, which even without without the presence of Abu Sayaff, is a political mess. In a country that is roughly 90% Roman Catholic and where Islam is just a footnote that is usually ignored, you're bound to want out if you're a Muslim. "

Hmmmm...so the opposite isn't the same in indonesia?

I do strongly agree with one point, the policy of the USA and many countries towards separtists movements is hypocritical.

>
> As for Muslims converting out of Islam, it's no
> different from how some people, especially family
> members would feel when A Catholic man marries a
> Jewish woman and converts or vice-versa. There might
> be a strong feeling of betrayal from pious members of
> the family. In the case of Indonesians, it actually
> lies in their culture.

It lies in their culture to bomb churchs and embassies? It lies in their culture to slaughter tens of thousands of Christians. Egads...why aren't the Hindus doing it then? Seems to me the Palestinians are doing the same and so are the Egyptians....seems to me they all have one thing in common...Wahhabist mentality.

Look at it this way, it
> Southern America, the Hispanic peoples somehow
> grafted the Catholic faith into their own traditions.
> In some parts of Europe Catholism may appear in
> completely different forms, but it's still Catholism.
> As in the case of the Indonesians and Malays, Islam
> was grafted into the culture, so Malay culture and
> Islam is one and the same. You're raised a Malay and
> suddenly you decide to abandon your faith and culture
> for another. Among some races it's commonplace for
> people to have different religions, but among Malays
> or Indonesians it comes to them as a culture shock,

Nope. I've seen it first hand. The churches are compunds with barbed wired fences and security. I'm not talking about choices here, I'm talking about fearing for your life because you believe something different than Islam. Like it or not, that certainly would dissaude conversion, no?

> sometimes provoking anger and yes violence. Speaking
> of which, there's this Christian Revival thing going
> on in my home country where Churches are more like
> social clubs where guys and girls hang out, play
> music, eat Pizza and other stuff in the name of God.
> I don't want to offend anyone but is this going on in
> the States too where Orthodoxy takes a back seat to
> "Hip" and "Happening"?

Its called CYO, been doing it over here for years..

Message was edited by: timmmythekaye

icha2005

Posts: 613
Registered: 3/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 4:56 AM

Ouch. Starting to be very sensitive here [smile]

As an Indonesian woman (there goes my secret ID!), I am compelled to join the discourse. I'm not a Moslem, but I understand that in addition to many extrimists in Indonesia, I have many moderate Moslem friends who are dismayed and frustated with the bombing, killing, etc that their so called 'Moslem' friend do in the name of God.

And thus, in the midst of everything ***** in my country, there are people who still believe in the power of universal love, compassion and appreciation towards one another. It's definitely not easy being an Indonesian now (perhaps parallel to being an American when Bush attacked Iraq - no offense...). But there are people here (of all religions, traditions, and races) who are fighting peacefully for the peace of Indonesia, and I am one of them.

A very interesting ads in our newspaper said: there is the word 'ONE' in IndONEsia. We as a nation will be able to get out of this turmoil safely and in peace.

And this is where my Wonder Woman fandom comes in: I have faith in that. The peace for not only my country, but also for the whole planet.

And also where my Batman fandom kick in: the persistence in the fight for what I believe in.

[supergrin]

so much real life for the comics!

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 31, 2006 5:11 AM

You're Indonesian? Cool, that makes us neighbours. Indonesia is a great place to be in although I can't stand bahasa Indonesia because I'm used to Malay or bahasa Malaysia.President Yudhoyohno(sp?) seems like a very capable man. And by the by, despite it's Byzantine politics, Malaysia is not as corrupt as Indonesia or Pakistan. Just because Mahatir decided to verbally screw several other countries and people (sorry Anwar but you were asking for it) and that most of its politicians dip their fingers into numerous companies (as though Bush isn't...), it does not make it a cesspool of corruption...yet. I'm not Malaysian mind you but my proximity to the country and numerous trips and stays there have shown me what a great place it is despite the ridiculously high theft rate. Also why "Moslem"? I thought most of the world decided to standardize things by calling us Muslims. Moslem sounds so...American [tongue]

Yeah I like Wonder Woman too...to bad I realized this nearly 3 issues before the series ends...


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