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killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 10:58 AM

Why couldn't I have shared my Islam Hunanities Class with you guys.

Sistene (Sp?) Chappel is the name of the Church Raith.

I've never seen Muslim works of a art. And I don't know about the Arabian nights. So, I'll assume you're right on point.

I was raised Unitarian. To those of you that don't know what Unitaritian is, I can sum it up by saying it is the Organized Agnostic Church. The overall belief is that every religion has some truth to offer, but no one is completely right. Both Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin were Unitarian, which is for a large part the reason of Seperation of Church and State. And it is those ideals that the Unitarian church still pushes politically today.

So, I have to say, My personal preference is that they do all or nothing.

Either cater to all religions, even the more obscure ones. Or none. And Frankly, I say none (NO DCU HEAVEN EITHER), simply because it is easier. Ethnicity should be open, Why Not? The only reason I think sexual orientation should be a factor is because Relationships are such a big part of the stories. And sexual orientation is mostly opposed because of religious beliefs, which shouldn't be a part of the comics as I just said.

Seriously, I am incredibly impressed with the civility, and composure of everyone on this thread. [supergrin]

sandwraith

Posts: 815
Registered: 7/19/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 5:40 PM

Wow,and here I was considering starting a thread to rub Sven Eriksson's departure from the England football team into all the English guys faces(nothing against the English mind you but they do play cheap footbal).doc,I'm flattered that you think so highly of me but to be honest I'm just a really passive guy. I'm not the type to flare up if I see a post where people diss Islam and Muslims because I know that the actions of some Muslims out there have warranted a great amount of anger and dissing. I'm still impressed with your willingness to learn about a faith other than your own so deeply.Likewise,people like you give me hope. I wouldn't worry about this reading this thread though, I think it's just about run it's course.Still as Killface said,I'm thankful that everyone here were respectful and civil in their posts,even the Suicide Bomber guy(though when you think about it,DC already has a guy like that called the Human Bomb but now he's officially dead).

Muslim works of art aren't really fantastic.They simply lack the flare and resonance of Renaissance day Christian art.The best works of Muslim art you could probably find are those of Persian origin,but eventually they fell out of drawing human figures, instead focusing on the beautiful floral motiffs that adorn most mosques in the world as well as Nastaliq,which is something like Arabic Calligraphy. The Arabian Nights...are a scary collection of tales.Whoever wrote them must have been the ancestor of the Brothers Grimm.The first tale alone depicts double male rape by a female Genie(I kid you not), adultery and later serial killings committed by two Arab kings who were the victims of the double male rape I mentioned earlier, one of them was a Persian king named Shahryar and his brother whose name escapes me. Very Vertigo eh?

Me?I am a born Muslim, thankful to be raised in a multi-racial society. I'm not Arabic,but a Malay-Indian mix(though some of my American friends insist I look Hawaiian [confused]

).Most of my friends are Chinese since they are the majority race where I come from and they all have different religious beliefs:from Christianity to Taoism.Some say that to live in a multi-racial society,you've got to be 'tolerant' of others, but for me I get along with anyone(except England fans),I don't 'tolerate' them.I guess it's because of my environment I'm not like some other Muslims out there who are reasonably sensitive(or "pious" as they would probably say).I don't want to say that I'm a 'Moderate' or 'Modern' Muslim because I immediately think of Turkish Muslims who hit the local watering hole after Friday prayers .Killface I agree to your post.It's not that I has a problem with Catholic,Jewish,Buddhists etc characters(If I were, I'd be a real ******* [frown]

),it's just that I want to see a respectable Muslim character in comics.Dust is just one step in mainstream comics but I'd like to see more. As for DCU heaven...well how else will you fit the Spectre into the DCU without implying something?

timmmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 2:10 AM

> Muslim works of art aren't really fantastic.They
> simply lack the flare and resonance of Renaissance
> day Christian art.The best works of Muslim art you
> could probably find are those of Persian origin,but
> eventually they fell out of drawing human figures,
> instead focusing on the beautiful floral motiffs that
> adorn most mosques in the world as well as
> Nastaliq,which is something like Arabic Calligraphy.

It makes sense thought. Islam, does not believe in portraying humans in works of art, for only the creator, allah deserves such respect...that's my nderstanding of it...art wasn't important. Science, Math, and astronomy were, I wonder why they stopped being enlightened. I gess centuries of war would do it...

> The Arabian Nights...are a scary collection of
> tales.Whoever wrote them must have been the ancestor
> of the Brothers Grimm.The first tale alone depicts
> double male rape by a female Genie(I kid you not),
> adultery and later serial killings committed by two
> Arab kings who were the victims of the double male
> rape I mentioned earlier, one of them was a Persian
> king named Shahryar and his brother whose name
> escapes me. Very Vertigo eh?

and we'll have fun, fun, fun.....

>
> Me?I am a born Muslim, thankful to be raised in a
> multi-racial society. I'm not Arabic,but a
> Malay-Indian mix(though some of my American friends
> insist I look Hawaiian [confused]

).Most of my friends
> are Chinese since they are the majority race where I
> come from and they all have different religious
> beliefs:from Christianity to Taoism.Some say that to
> live in a multi-racial society,you've got to be
> 'tolerant' of others, but for me I get along with
> anyone(except England fans),I don't 'tolerate' them.I
> guess it's because of my environment I'm not like
> some other Muslims out there who are reasonably
> sensitive(or "pious" as they would probably say).I
> don't want to say that I'm a 'Moderate' or 'Modern'
> Muslim because I immediately think of Turkish Muslims
> who hit the local watering hole after Friday
> prayers .Killface I agree to your post.It's not that
> I has a problem with Catholic,Jewish,Buddhists etc
> characters(If I were, I'd be a real
> ******* [frown]

),it's just that I want to see a
> respectable Muslim character in comics.Dust is just
> one step in mainstream comics but I'd like to see
> more. As for DCU heaven...well how else will you fit
> the Spectre into the DCU without implying something?

No offense to you are your belief system but I think religion as a practice should be left out of comics. I'm not talking about Greek gods of Norse Gods noone believes in anymore....I just think at some point some member of either a different muslim belief system than you or another christian of jude-christian religion will get offended at the portrayal. I think we should separate church and comics.

Probably too late (Daredevils Priest buddy, Spectre's host being Islamo-judeo-christian and Heaven exisiting and Lucifer as a balance to "the light"

maybe a fair islamic character might be interesting...as long as its accurate

martinsteirsmom

Posts: 776
From: Martin Stein's Mom
Registered: 1/16/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:40 AM

> Whoa whoa...easy now guys,this thread seems to be
> taking on a life of its own.

Couldn't have possibly seen that coming.

martinsteirsmom

Posts: 776
From: Martin Stein's Mom
Registered: 1/16/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:41 AM

>but I know there are many parts to Judaism and Christianity that are incompatible with modern liberal society.

Really? My goodness. Guess we'll have to choose, then.

I pick modern liberal society.

martinsteirsmom

Posts: 776
From: Martin Stein's Mom
Registered: 1/16/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:42 AM

> >our postmodern, atheist, and liberal society?
> a generalization IMO
>
> >The extremists definitely aren't the only
> hypocrites. We seem to be comfortable holding
> monotheistic traditions in one hand and the
> classically liberal traditions in the other. But, I
> doubt they're compatible.
> An eternal struggle.
>
> >But after awhile I realized that I couldn't hate
> myself or my religion because of the heinous actions
> of some Extremists.
> I know I haven't lost any sleep over the Inquisition
> or any of the other things Christian extremists have
> done. Good for you, it's been very nice to hear your
> thoughts on this subject, very interesting.

Hear, hear, and well-said.

martinsteirsmom

Posts: 776
From: Martin Stein's Mom
Registered: 1/16/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 3:46 AM

>I am, however, pointing out that the violence is techincally apart of the religion. This can't be said for Judaism or Christianity

The hell it can't *cough*aneyeforaneye*cough*.

j1mcorr1gan

Posts: 2
Registered: 1/28/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 6:40 AM

Great topic for discussion sandwraith. I think the main reason their aren't many muslim characters in comics is the simple financial bottom line. I don't have any hard numbers to back it up, just an assumption that the majority of comics are sold in the U.S. and U.K., where the vast majority of the population are Christian.

I don't think there's a concious decision by editors to show nothing but the stereotypical Muslim terrorist villian(s), they're just pandering to the widest base of their audience. I would like to see a well written Muslim character in the comic univese. Something along the lines of Ostrander/Mandrake's Spectre series that delves into religous themed dilemmas.

If it interests you Ostradner's Spectre was written as the wraith of all the religous dieties anger. I'll dig through my stash and find the Spectre issues that etablished him as the wraith of all Gods if your interested in them.

Peace to you.

velvetshark

Posts: 276
Registered: 11/27/04

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 10:31 AM

> The invention of the
> "jihad" and the raiding party traditions are both
> intricacies of the religion. i.e. violence is
> inherent within the philosphy of Islam--Again, I am
> not saying all Muslim's are violent. I am, however,
> pointing out that the violence is techincally apart
> of the religion. This can't be said for Judaism or
> Christianity.

Are you friggin' HIGH ? Someone's trying to hide some religous bigotry under a thin veneer of pseudo-intellectualism. Genesis 4:1-26 starts off proving you wrong pretty early.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 11:42 AM

> >I am, however, pointing out that the violence is
> techincally apart of the religion. This can't be said
> for Judaism or Christianity
>
> The hell it can't *cough*aneyeforaneye*cough*.

That was Hammurabi, not biblical...

althought the Old Testament does condone violence in the name of Yahweh, the New Testament is emphatically pacifist, regardless of the things humans have done in the name of Christ.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 12:00 PM

> > The invention of the
> > "jihad" and the raiding party traditions are both
> > intricacies of the religion. i.e. violence is
> > inherent within the philosphy of Islam--Again, I
> am
> > not saying all Muslim's are violent. I am,
> however,
> > pointing out that the violence is techincally
> apart
> > of the religion. This can't be said for Judaism or
> > Christianity.
>
> Are you friggin' HIGH ? Someone's trying to
> hide some religous bigotry under a thin veneer of
> pseudo-intellectualism. Genesis 4:1-26 starts off
> proving you wrong pretty early.

I agree, but Genesis is not the Koran. In fact, the Koran discounts Genesis with its own Creation stories and own interpretations of the beginnig of time. The Koran has its fair share of violence. A few to wet your whistle with...

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Quran.htm

a few other nifty quotes

Sura 9:5 - "So when the sacred months have
passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush"

Thats a sweet message (noted sardonic tone). So peaceful. Turn the other cheek, so to speak. Not if someone is an unbeliever try to evangelize, but torture them and kill them. There is no bigotry in actually reading what the Koran says. It is clearly barbaric. As is the Old testament. Christianity has a violent history, but there is no basis for it in the New teatament or in the words of their god, Jesus Christ. so although the words themselves are pacifists, the humans that have been in charge of the religion have ignored the message for centuries.

From the things I've read in the koran, its a fairly bigoted religion if little else. Many Christian faiths (and Hindu, Jewish and Sikh for that matter) are bigoted in this way as well. Eternal damnation for non-believers. Interesting. It basically says those who don't believe will die some horrid death an have some horrid afterlife. It also claims that allah kills not only for vengence but sometimes just to make a point. It also claims that sometimes it is man's job to fight god's war for him. Its God's will to kill others....this I have a hard time with.

fight god's war.....interesting...

I'm all for believing what you want to believe, but when you start killing people over it, well, that just wrong. Its not self-defense to say "you talk bad about my reliogn so therefore you should di.e"The cathollic faith did it for 1600 or so years but finally was "put back" where it belonged. Maybe this should happen to Islam.

Jihad certainly is defined in several ways, but all of them are violent. Some Muslims believe its a defensive strategy "Jihad against those who try to take a way of life, " yet other clerics see it as a way to expand Muslim influence, espcially in wahhabbist circles. Yet, the Shiites have hteir share of cleric who believe as well, that the world belongs to Islam and its theirs for the taking.

Einstein told us as long as we prepare for war, there will be no peace. I think some Muslim mentality (and many, many countries, including the US of A) should take heed in this warning.

So if there is inclusion of religion in comic books, lets be acurate in its representation. Not some politically correct version of it.

bcbdla

Posts: 7,394
Registered: 11/14/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 12:14 PM

> I disagree with the fact that non-Muslim writers
> can't write a good Muslim character though. I mean
> Greg Rucka isn't Jewish(to my knowledge) but he wrote
> a very good Judaism themed story for Kitty Pryde in
> an X-Men GN I read. I think its really a matter of
> interests...maybe us Muslims are just too boring or
> uptight to be portrayed in the seedy underbelly of
> the Superhero world? I agree with the fact that most
> Muslims aren't Arabs. I myself am a Malay-Indian
> Muslim. Hinduism isn't too widely regarded in comics
> either, but I guess Kama Sutra man did make Whose
> Line is it anyway?
In the US we have way more interaction with Jews and Judaism than we have with Muslims and Islam. Jews have been strongly integrated into mainstream US society for decades while Muslims are still on the fringe.
DC and Marvel staff are unlikely to have characters who simply happen to be Muslim. I think the closest is Dust and even her costume is a huge flag waving a constant reminder of her religion - unlike other members of the X-Men. I mean, Nightcrawler doesn't wear a huge cross on his costume nor does Shadowcat dislay her Star of David.

The two major religions in the US are Christianity and Judaism - and those two are closely linked through the Old and New Testaments.
How US Jews incorporate their faith into daily life is simply easier for US writers to grasp.

timmythekaye

Posts: 448
From: Baltimore
Registered: 7/25/05

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 12:25 PM

> The two major religions in the US are Christianity
> and Judaism - and those two are closely linked
> through the Old and New Testaments.
> How US Jews incorporate their faith into daily life
> is simply easier for US writers to grasp.

Jewish believers are about 1.2 percent of the USA's popualtion acccording to Census figures. Wouldn't call that major. Besides Christianity (over 75 percent) Atheism and Agnosticism are about 12 percent. That is major. Muslims make up about 7/10 pf a percent in the USA and is growing. I wouldn't say that give the Hebrew faith any kind of plurality over Islam in the USA.

bcbdla

Posts: 7,394
Registered: 11/14/03

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 1:27 PM

> Jewish believers are about 1.2 percent of the USA's
> popualtion acccording to Census figures. Wouldn't
> call that major. Besides Christianity (over 75
> percent) Atheism and Agnosticism are about 12
> percent. That is major. Muslims make up about 7/10
> of a percent in the USA and is growing. I wouldn't
> say that give the Hebrew faith any kind of plurality
> over Islam in the USA.
I dont consider Atheism and Agnosticism to be religions.
In any case, it is not difficult to write about people who basically have no religious beliefs - simply dont write anything about religion when writing about those characters.

-- In 2001, the five largest denominations in New York were: Roman Catholic (about 38% of total state population), Baptist (7%), Methodist (6%), Jewish (5%) and Lutheran (3%).
Los Angeles is home to adherents of many religions. The city has the second-largest Jewish community in the United States, after New York City. --

Most comics writers for DC and Marvel are going to be located in one of these States. And are unlikely to have as much personal experience or interaction with Muslims as they will have had with Christians or Jews.
It doesnt really matter whether Islam is currently growing. Writers are going to write what they know or at least about what they are familiar. And most comics writers writing today will know something about Christians and Jews (and atheists and agnostics) and are likely to know more about Buddhism, Confucianism or Hinduism than Islam.

martinsteirsmom

Posts: 776
From: Martin Stein's Mom
Registered: 1/16/06

Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 29, 2006 1:33 PM

> > >I am, however, pointing out that the violence is
> > techincally apart of the religion. This can't be
> said
> > for Judaism or Christianity
> >
> > The hell it can't *cough*aneyeforaneye*cough*.
>
>
> That was Hammurabi, not biblical...
>
> althought the Old Testament does condone violence in
> the name of Yahweh, the New Testament is emphatically
> pacifist, regardless of the things humans have done
> in the name of Christ.

Right. Christians are better than Jews, but at least they're both better than Muslims.

How silly of me to forget the hierarchy.

And I'm not going to match chapter and verse with anyone, because the only fairy tales I read are comics. My point is that it's patently absurd to claim that any one religion is inherently peaceful while all others (or any one particular other) is bellicose by definition.

The New Testament is no exception. Some really, really violent public policy is shaped by a syzygy of neo-cons and Christian fundamentlists trying to turn that one last fairy tale into reality.

You know, there is a part of me that wants to believe in sentience after death against all reason just so that there would be some way these dumb-a$$ nutjobs who actively want a nuclear holocaust to transpire in the middle east and wipe out all life on earth can have their collective noses rubbed in it just once before dropping off into the infinite chasm of experiential oblivion.

I kind of wish the folks who don't understand that the Left Behind books really are just works of fiction would just rapture on out of here and leave the planet to the able-brained.

Of course, I don't have any kind of problem with any person of faith who understands that scripture is comprised entirely of allegory and parable .


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