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Topic: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Replies: 1,731   Pages: 116   Last Post: Sep 3, 2006 4:22 AM by: sandwraith

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sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:04 PM

Whoa whoa...easy now guys,this thread seems to be taking on a life of its own. As some of you said, there have been characters made with connections to their faith. I can think of a couple off the top of my head but for some reason Sabra(token Israeli superheroine...come on Marvel,you can do better than that) keeps coming to mind. Thankfully in comics nowadays religion isn't really played up except in the recent issues of Cap America where the Extremists just happen to be Muslim(come on,he can't be fighting Nazis all the time).

As for extremism...Its a little touchy.Let's look at Israeli history.In the closing years of the British Empire,the thousands of Jewish refugees were looking forward to returning to the Promised Land but the already existing Judeo-Islamic tension made the British a little wary of handing it over to the Jews.The Jews who were reasonably angered felt the British had betrayed them formed the Irgun and the Stern Gang(Lehi).Today, most Israelis and Jews consider the Irgun to be Freedom Fighters, but technically, they were Terrorists who operated along the same lines as Al-Qaeda,the IRA and God knows what other terrorists there are out there.Likewise,Irish Catholics may not view elements of the IRA as terrorists but freedom fighters as well.It all comes down to points of view.Like Magic Yang,I'm not wild on Bin Laden or the rest of his hell-spawned ilk,but as long as there are people out there who feel oppressed,whether its through religion,sex,race,status etc, there will always be terrorism.

And there will be the crazies too like the man who killed Rabin.In his eyes,he saw Rabin as a traitor for dealing with the Palestinian just as how some Hindus viewed Gandhi as a race-traitor for wanting to get along with Muslims back when India came to be. In the eyes of some,their assassinations were justified because in their own way they believed.

I checked out Fables when I heard it was going to feature Arabian characters(and some very nice cover art).To be honest I was a little lost and since there currently isn't a Fables forum over in Vertigo(that place needs a clean up) I couldn't ask anyone about what was going on.The potrayls of the Arabs was suprisingly right on the money.Most of the natural born Arabs I know are very scrappy and have a certain air of arrogance about them(the ones that DON'T come from Syria anyway).Still I didn't like the whole towel-head stereotype they have.I might stick around for Fables just to see what happens next.

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:09 PM

docsavage,you've got a right to feel unassured.After Sept.11 I myself started to doubt my faith. But after awhile I realized that I couldn't hate myself or my religion because of the heinous actions of some Extremists. This thread may disappear overnight,but I'm still pleased that it got this good a response. I'm sorry if the topic offends you in anyway.When it does die off(and I'm sure it will),you've got my word that it won't be an issue again.

jgiannantoni05

Posts: 2,933
Registered: 6/24/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:27 PM

>our postmodern, atheist, and liberal society?
a generalization IMO

>The extremists definitely aren't the only hypocrites. We seem to be comfortable holding monotheistic traditions in one hand and the classically liberal traditions in the other. But, I doubt they're compatible.
An eternal struggle.

>But after awhile I realized that I couldn't hate myself or my religion because of the heinous actions of some Extremists.
I know I haven't lost any sleep over the Inquisition or any of the other things Christian extremists have done. Good for you, it's been very nice to hear your thoughts on this subject, very interesting.

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:34 PM

This has got to be the BEST THREAD THIS MONTH! I should be doing homework right now, but I had to post.

I am loving what you guys are putting out.

Magic Yang, that is a very compelling point. I live in Oklahoma, where many Christians (mostly older) would like to see us going back in time. But what I really must say is that I never saw it that way. I had always looked at terrorism as using religion as a vehicle, only to achieve political ends. I still see it that way, but you've offered a new perspective.


Sandwraith, my friend, I wish everyone had such an indepth knowledge of the history of Israel, and Ireland. Catholic and Jewish followers have also been creators of terrorism, claiming their faith as a divine right to kill.

Now, to address religion in comics. While I can't speak for Marvel, I know very well that in DCU they are running with every possible modern Christian theme. Heaven, hell, Satan, demons, Souls, etc. I say modern because if you look at heaven it sure isn't Biblical, more like something you hear about at a MEGACHURCH.

Keep it up fellas. Just remember to show some respect.

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:37 PM

This has got to be the BEST THREAD THIS MONTH! I should be doing homework right now, but I had to post.

I am loving what you guys are putting out.

Magic Yang, that is a very compelling point. I live in Oklahoma, where many Christians (mostly older) would like to see us going back in time. But what I really must say is that I never saw it that way. I had always looked at terrorism as using religion as a vehicle, only to achieve political ends. I still see it that way, but you've offered a new perspective.


Sandwraith, my friend, I wish everyone had such an indepth knowledge of the history of Israel, and Ireland. Catholic and Jewish followers have also been creators of terrorism, claiming their faith as a divine right to kill.

Now, to address religion in comics. While I can't speak for Marvel, I know very well that in DCU they are running with every possible modern Christian theme. Heaven, hell, Satan, demons, Souls, etc. I say modern because if you look at heaven it sure isn't Biblical, more like something you hear about at a MEGACHURCH.

Keep it up fellas. Just remember to show some respect.

killface

Posts: 1,741
From: Oklahoma
Registered: 11/7/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:39 PM

sorry for the double post.

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 8:40 PM

Not indepth,but just enough to have an understanding of what's going on. I may be wrong on some if not all points(pls correct me if I have).Glad you like the thread Killface but get that homework done.

bats666

Posts: 1,937
Registered: 8/23/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 24, 2006 9:59 PM

just a touch on the extremists.

every religion has them, athiests and agnostics got em' too. infact being an extemist has nothing to do with religion, or rather specific religions, although religion can bring about extreme beliefs, some more than others, in certain aspects. but, that does not make every religious person an extremist.


what about the christians and chatholics that drive cars into abortion clinics, and then shoot anyone left standing? does that mean that all christian and chatholic people do that sort of thing? no.

lets look at catholics. large prtions of western europe, north and south america contain many catholics, are they all the same? hell no! should we treat them all the same? hell no!! why? it would only be a disservice to them. is that any different to the way we treat islamic people? yes it is. we, as americans with a limited amount of exposure to, and knowledge of islam, lump islamic people into one catagory, and thats f#ckin terrible. islamic people are middle eastern, black, white, indian, and the list(muck like the beat) goes on. just like most other religions.

anyway, sorry for the rant, hope i stayed on topic.

peace my brothers.

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 3:50 AM

As I mentioned in my previous note, in the past, after I have replied [in-depth] to threads like this, the moderators have taken it down---so I have to be careful with what I say here.

a) DC wants these posts to be comics-related, so:

* Someone responded to my comment about not wanting [insert groups here] in comics, with the words "but they already are". Yes, that is true. That is a fact. My sentence was a statement of opinion and hope, not of fact. You can say, "well too bad because they already are in comics", and I can still reply something like "Yes, I think it is too bad also".

* People have speculated about the powers a Muslim hero might have. Well, if someone wants a Muslim hero, there must be a reason, even if it is because you are insecure and want someone to identify with. e.g. I can understand a small, young, minority group child looking at the comic books and wondering why few or no characters look like he does. So, I think we need Black heroes, etc.

As Islam encompasses many races and ethnic groups, I will guess a person who wanrts a Muslim hero, doesn't just want a Muslim hero who "looks like himself".

So, perhaps, the Muslim hero should embrace the ideals of Islam and perhaps embrace those ideals?

On the positive side, he could do charitable works and emphasize the positive traits of the stated pillars of Islam.

On the other hand, he could emphasize the [my word] 'negative' traits. So, how about "Sharia", who enforces Islamic law? How about "The Apostate", who rescues people from clerics who issue Fatwahs of Death forleaving Islam? How about "The Schism", who has the power to discern Sunni from Shiite, at a glance?

In short, I still believe it's best "not to go there". If you want to imagine that any given hero is Muslim, fine go ahead. Someone else can imagine that any hero is Hindu or Epicopalian, etc.

BTW, someone mentioned to me that Connor Queen is a Buddhist and used that as an example of religion in comics. I'm not sure, but I think that Buddhism is more a philosophy than a religion. I have a strong recollection that a practicing Buddhist once told me that. [Feel free to correct me]
-------------------------------------

b) Someone asked if I have studied Islam:
I have read a number of books including books by Jared Diamond, Bernard Lewis, and others. I have read "The Arab Mind" (first published back in the 1960's. I am currently reading "Infidel", a history of relations between Christiandom and Islam. I have a dictionary of world religions; I have the Koran (not fully read). I even have "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam.". I have "The Idiots Guide to Islam", and a pocket Guide to Islam".

Here are three books I just went and took off the shelf: "The Legacy of Jihad" (written in 1991); "Dogs of God (Columbus, the Inquisition, and the defeat of the Moors)"; "1453-The Holy War for Constantinople".

Go check them out at Amazon or B&N.

I also have a number of History text books [from college and high school, and I have a time-line of world history. This last book is an excellent resource because it does not have commentary---just dates of world events.

I love this book because one can use it to match up dates and events with other books, and because it is as objective as you can get---just dates.

I invite everyone to match up the dates yourself and chart the "progress" of Islam. Be sure to note the progress of Islam BEFORE the Crusades.


c) I have a couple of Muslim acquaintances, notably some people in an outdoors club and the guys who run the local gas station. They fall into the category of "familar strnagers"---people we see every once in a while, who look familar, but of whom we know nothing and can only speculate. They seem like nice people. In short: I know as much about them as I do about some guy at work or an athlete on TV---little or nothing.

In conclusion:

a) I'm still against real-world religioun heroes.
b) I note that the stated pillars of Islam sound great.
c) History shows that Islam takes a long-term view. As I have studied that long-term view for five years, I am concerned.

vrviperii

Posts: 1,481
From: CONTROL HQ
Registered: 8/18/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 4:03 AM

> http://www.adherents.com/lit/comics/comic_book_religio
> n.html#heroes
>
> an interesting link to comic characters and their
> faitjs.Did you know that Batman is an
> Episcoplian/Catholic?I don't even know what an
> Episcoplian is!


The best one was J. Jonah Jameson's religious affiliation: hates Spider-Man[lol]

xamehtothairap

Posts: 44
Registered: 1/25/06
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 4:14 AM

just a touch on the extremists. every religion has them, athiests and agnostics got em' too. infact being an extemist has nothing to do with religion, or rather specific religions, although religion can bring about extreme beliefs, some more than others, in certain aspects. but, that does not make every religious person an extremist.

what about the christians and chatholics that drive cars into abortion clinics, and then shoot anyone left standing? does that mean that all christian and chatholic people do that sort of thing? no.

lets look at catholics. large prtions of western europe, north and south america contain many catholics, are they all the same? hell no! should we treat them all the same? hell no!! why? it would only be a disservice to them. is that any different to the way we treat islamic people? yes it is. we, as americans with a limited amount of exposure to, and knowledge of islam, lump islamic people into one catagory, and thats f#ckin terrible. islamic people are middle eastern, black, white, e, indian, and the list(muck like the beat) goes on. just like most other religions.



Very true. Fanaticism comes from all beliefs and faiths whether they be political OR religious in nature.

I have one thing to say about religous doctrines however: While many of the Muslim practitioners in the homeland aren't fanatical, that's because there is a degree of rebellion against the religion they practice (mostly unconscious). The invention of the "jihad" and the raiding party traditions are both intricacies of the religion. i.e. violence is inherent within the philosphy of Islam--Again, I am not saying all Muslim's are violent. I am, however, pointing out that the violence is techincally apart of the religion. This can't be said for Judaism or Christianity. It's true that their followers sometimes succumbed to violent ways--However, that can be accurately asserted as a perversion of the faith. Furthermore, even if one could say otherwise, it should be noted that the more violent Muslim practices have been instituted from the very beginning of its birth. At least Catholicism never suffered such corruption with such vast consistency.

sandwraith

Posts: 812
Registered: 7/19/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 4:31 AM

man doc...you know your stuff.As for my understanding of Islam, I'll be the first to admit I'm not as well versed in the faith as I should be, partly because I spent most of my youth on less fruitful endeavours.From the tone of your post I'm guessing that you're saying that Islam in itself is regressing.I'm inclined to agree. I recall the history of Islam pre-Crusader period,as one of lecturers called it the Golden Age of Islam.Mathematics,Astrology,Geography and Philosophy were refined in the Middle-East during that age and extremism was virtually non-existant.Maybe I'm stretching things a little but I think the fall of Islam's intellectual progress came after the Crusades where the Zeal and ferociousness of the Crusaders rubbed off the Muslims. Then there was the Mongols and we know how well they hammered everyone and of course the rise of the Hedonistic Ottomans.The splintering within Islam itself doesn't help either. I myself have a strong dislike for the Wahabi sect(the primary sect of Saudi Arabia).The Wahabis paint themselves as Islamic purists and their favorite phrase: 'Bid'ah'(something like unnecessary).So they're like:"The Prophet wasn't a scientist,so science is Bid'ah" or "The Prophet was never an artist.So art is Bid'ah". Its very...very annoyoing.Wahabiism is one of the main reasons Saudi ain't worth a damn with the exception of the Holy cities and their oil.

As for what you said about the Silver Age,I completely agree.Religion was never an issue then(well except for the emphasis on Catholic angle in Daredevil),but recently there has been an emphasis on it in mainstream titles,not only in terms of religion but race and even sexual preference.Some guys may not be bothered by race of a character but then there are those who are.Good example:Howard Stern.The guy actually asked why Spawn had to be a black guy.I never really saw why he couldn't be one.Writers have been placing emphasis on their characters' faith and ethnic background a great deal these days doc so that they can appeal to more readers.All I'm saying is why aren't there more reasonably respectable Muslim characters in comics.

As for Killface's comment on DC's emphasis on Judeo-Christian tones for their stories, the reason is this:Islam has never been a very graphic religion.I mean compare the paintings of Michealangelo in the Church of...I actually forgot its name??[eek]Anyway, compare that to the plain ceilings of a Mosque.Look at the paintings of Micheal slaying Lucifer and at a drawing by a Muslim chronicling the Battle of the Camel and so on.Christianity is easier to relate to because of the envisioned paintings of Angels and Christ from the Renaissance,they give writers and artists a degree of inspiration.Let's not forget that art especially that which depicted human figures wasn't too widely received back in the Prophet's day and was actually played down.Then there are stories like The Divine Comedy by Dante Aligheiri(sp?) which gives writers something to base their work on and the countless of paintings, poems and stories that depict Christianity.If you could get through the start of 1001 Arabian Nights without being shocked by the incredible amount of sexual references(they make Vertigo look like Archie in comparison),you can see why writers prefer to base their work on Christian themes,aside from the fact that they're familiar with them.

ryandodson

Posts: 1,085
From: Renegade Comic Forums, mostly
Registered: 3/13/05
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 5:28 AM

The continuing adventures of, the MUSLIM WOMAN!
She actually wears no mask to protect her secret identity

docsavage

Posts: 712
Registered: 5/18/03
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 5:40 AM

sandwraith,
I want to thank you for your understanding and kind words.

I have had previous discussions with many people about [insert topic here].
I have found that generally, it is impossible to dissuade a person from an already-held-view.

In many previous discussions, e.g. in this case Islam, the person asks questions just as you asked, then when I cite resources, they reply with something like, "Well those are anti-'topic' books". The, generally, I find it is not worth pursuing the discussion because both parties are merely pounding our heads into the sand.

I thank you for making this situation different.

Little things like your reply help maintain my 'hope' for humanity.

I shall continue to read this thread.

adkal

Posts: 921
From: London
Registered: 5/14/03
Re: Muslim characters in comics(general opinions please)
Posted: Jan 25, 2006 6:25 AM

> sandwraith,
> I want to thank you for your understanding and kind
> words.
>
> I have had previous discussions with many people
> about [insert topic here].
> I have found that generally, it is impossible to
> dissuade a person from an already-held-view.
>
> In many previous discussions, e.g. in this case
> Islam, the person asks questions just as you asked,
> then when I cite resources, they reply with something
> like, "Well those are anti-'topic' books". The,
> generally, I find it is not worth pursuing the
> discussion because both parties are merely pounding
> our heads into the sand.
>
> I thank you for making this situation different.
>
> Little things like your reply help maintain my 'hope'
> for humanity.
>
> I shall continue to read this thread.


Peace

That's why I stopped talking about it. It wouldn't have gone anywhere and apart from minor interruptions by posters who have nothing serious or of merit to say (see the post preceding yours, for example) we would have just gone round in circles.

Now, people can laugh and jeer at me all they want, but I've always viewed Superman and Batman as Muslims based upon two simple things:

That there is a Right and a Wrong in the universe and that distinction is not hard to make

and

That they does their best to help others.

To me, personally, those are two core aspects of my faith. Whether people who call themselves Muslim apply these aspects or not is something entirely different and something I don't bother factoring in.

So I've already got my Muslim heroes ;)

Peace


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